Multiple reports are reinvestigating the neo-Nazi fighters and militias involved in the war both in Russia and Ukraine. “You have neo-Nazis on both sides of this conflict,” says Ukrainian American journalist Lev Golinkin, a longtime reporter on the far right in Ukraine and Russia who is critical of the Western media’s normalization of groups like the Azov Battalion. “We are sending a very dangerous message that if you’re the right type of neo-Nazis, we will not only work with you, we will celebrate you,” Golinkin notes. We also speak with national security reporter Ben Makuch, whose investigations reveal the networks connecting Ukrainian and Russian militias and American neo-Nazis. An anti-Putin Russian militia that carried out attacks inside Russia in May was led by a neo-Nazi who has maintained links with American neo-Nazis. In a new piece, Makuch also shares the story of an American military veteran wanted for murder who is now fighting for ultranationalist groups in Ukraine. “We know there has been secretive pipelines and networks,” says Makuch. “That still exists.”

We end today’s show with the first — we are going to talk today about what’s happening in Ukraine. We’re joined right now by two people, by a journalist who’s written extensively in The Intercept, a reporter who’s looked at the role of neo-Nazis in the war. The Ukrainian-born journalist Lev Golinkin is also with us. He recently wrote a piece for The Nation headlined “The Western Media Is Whitewashing the Azov Battalion.” The piece looks at the neo-Nazi roots of one of Ukraine’s most heralded paramilitary forces. Earlier this month, Turkey released five former Azov commanders who were being held in Turkey. They flew back on a plane with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

Meanwhile, The Intercept recently detailed how an anti-Putin Russian militia that carried out attacks inside Russia in May is led by a neo-Nazi who’s maintained links with American neo-Nazis. That piece was written by Ben Makuch, a national security reporter who used to work as a correspondent for Vice News Tonight. Ben has also just written a new piece for The Intercept about an American Army vet, wanted for murder in the United States, who escaped to Ukraine to fight with the Right Sector, an ultranationalist Ukrainian militia. We’re going to get to that in a moment.

  • Veraticus@lib.lgbtEnglish
    12·
    1 year ago

    Because “kicking them out”:

    1. Presupposes there are enough actual neo-Nazis here to justify purging the armed forces, which is simply not demonstrated even in the OP article.
    2. Assumes said neo-Nazis are easy to purge and that doing so will not compromise Ukraine’s ability to fight while purges are on-going. If you purge the army of 10 neo-Nazis, but remove its ability to fight for that time period… is that worth it?
    3. Simply ignores that this entire narrative is literally seamless to Putin’s stated war aims and Russia’s wartime propaganda of Ukraine. Why do you think Russia is pushing this narrative too? Is it because it’s true, or because it’s a wildly overstated claim that is also a useful one for them to repeat constantly?

    I have no idea how you can say “ignoring Ukraine’s issues will only hurt it in the long run” when they are literally fighting for their very existence fight now. Like, doing anything except fighting for its life certainly seems like THAT would hurt it in the long run, since if it loses this war there is no long run!

    This is also totally ignoring the fact that Ukraine just elected a Jewish President after an anti-Russia pro-democracy revolution in which far-right parties acquired less than 4% of the total vote. In what sense does any of that justify systemic concern about neo-Nazis?

      • Veraticus@lib.lgbtEnglish
        10·
        1 year ago

        No offense, but I don’t think one Twitter video that appears to show something that might have happened is very good proof that there’s a neo-Nazi problem in the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Especially, again, when this is the very point that Putin is basing his entire invasion on. With all of Russian intelligence at his beck and call, he could manufacture very, very good evidence. (Certainly better than this is which seems pretty weak to me at least.)

        but “purging neo-Nazis” shouldn’t stop the military

        You’d have to:

        1. Interview and investigate every member of the military. The bad apples won’t simply volunteer that they are neo-Nazis, after all. This will disrupt the entire military while a huge bureaucratic apparatus investigates and processes all its members. People who simply don’t like each other will accuse each other of being neo-Nazis. Some will manufacture evidence to get their enemies removed.

        2. Get rid of all the neo-Nazis. I imagine most won’t go willingly and they’re members of the military so many are probably highly-trained and well-armed. Even once you succeed, the units that they left will have morale problems. (All units will have morale problems because this process will be laborious and paranoid, and will take place while they are fighting an armed conflict against an external enemy, never mind internal investigators doubting each and every person’s loyalties.)

        3. Have an appeals process (and thus an entire separate bureaucracy from the first bureaucracy) because the investigators and interviewers will get it wrong and there needs to be a way for innocent people, wrongly accused, to appeal their discharges.

        So in the end, you’ve spent time and money to weaken your military, both in terms of membership and morale, to execute a witch hunt that basically vindicates the opposing army’s reason to invade, to get rid of some small amount of neo-Nazis… instead of actually defending your country against that existential threat. Which (even if it exists) can be handled properly after the war is over.

        I don’t want to seem condescending either, but the ask here is totally outrageous, especially when there’s no “long term” goal here, because as I said, failure to defend Ukraine will result in literally no “long term” goals for Ukraine mattering.

          • Veraticus@lib.lgbtEnglish
            4·
            1 year ago

            That Twitter video was posted by the Ukrainian National Guard.

            But so what? Does that make it true? Why do you believe it? Ukraine was governed by a pro-Russia Putin stooge less than a decade ago. Do you think it’s possible there are people still in Russia (and outside it) that would push this angle as hard as possible even if it might not be factual? How would you determine what’s true and not? Why are you using Twitter videos to do it? You accuse me of naiveté but there is simply not very good evidence for this, and extremely good reasons to be skeptical of it.

            And no offense but what you describe is insane

            What I describe is the only workable method of doing this. “Oh, just remove them” is magical thinking. How are you supposed to even find them? What do you do if some of them claim they’re not? Obviously they’re not civilians, but you still don’t want to get it wrong because you’ll alienate large swathes of your own (well-armed and well-trained) armed forces… and, again, for what? Why do it now when you can just do it after the war? Since if Ukraine loses, this debate won’t matter at all anyway since everyone involved will be dead.

              • Veraticus@lib.lgbtEnglish
                3·
                1 year ago

                You keep saying I don’t have military experience, but how is any of what I’ve said wrong? How do you propose to find and filter out neo-Nazis? Do you truly believe all (or even most) of them are wearing their affiliations literally on their sleeves? Even if they are, how do you then suggest removing them? How will those actions help Ukraine rather than hurt it?

                If you truly want Ukraine to succeed in the long run, why not tackle this after the war is over? As I’ve said, if you truly believe this is a problem then it certainly isn’t going anywhere. And if Ukraine loses the problem is solved since the neo-Nazis will be dead regardless, having died in the fight against Putin’s army.

                  • Veraticus@lib.lgbtEnglish
                    3·
                    1 year ago

                    It really shouldn’t be hard to figure out who they are

                    This is the kind of magical thinking I called out earlier. What happens if a member of the military accuses someone else of being a neo-Nazi because they simply don’t like them? What recourse does that person have? Why wouldn’t Russian agents inside the Ukrainian military simply accuse high-ranking members of the military of being neo-Nazis? You asserting that it’s easy does not actually make this problem easy, and saying “just do it” ignores huge amounts of complications.

                    By force if necessary, this is a military not a company.

                    Okay, except they’re probably armed and well-trained. What happens if they resist, or, even worse, band together and resist?

                    The reason I think this is important is I fear is the Azov battalion being hailed as heroes

                    I just don’t understand how these problems can’t be tackled after the war. Again, the problem solves itself if Ukraine fails to win. If Ukraine does win, this can all be tackled then and it won’t impact Ukraine’s ability to resist Russia’s aggression.