People, you’ve gotta stop waiting for a revolution.
Any “solution” that starts with “you first” and involves fighting against forces that vastly out gun you, with people you absolutely would not agree to fight with is a complete non starter.
You have to realize that even if such a revolution happened, after it happened, they’d just pick the same systems that lead to that result.
You want a hail mary but you will not get it.
The practical buckleys tagline solution you all hate but is the only one that works is supporting the fuck out of the democrats in not only the short term (to stop so many people from being harmed), but in the long term too, this way they can’t just use the right as an excuse to go to the right. All that time, youll need to replace the old guard with more progressive members through overwhelming support in primaries, and being active in state and local politics.
Thats the only way forward where you can win, and its a lot more feasible and less painful than any revolution fantasies. In any of those fantasies, its more likely your head rolls than any of the ghouls we all hate.
When Elon Musk and all the other now-mainstream-weirdos started calling for a civil war, it should have been a wakeup to progressives - this is not in your best interest.
Taking back the average middle-class voter will require changing hearts and minds. That’s what the Republicans did to them. We, on the other hand, have been hitting them over the head with their own racism and stupidity, ignoring the reasons they’re doing what they’re doing - and how we’re playing into Republican hands by doing this over and over.
Now is the time to build the progressive party as a big tent - if you hold one progressive tenant, you’re a democrat, goddamn it - and start inviting voters into it, with solutions to their problems and acceptance of their ass-backward views until we can soften and change them.
I don’t think this part is true. I agree with the part before this, but not this.
The republicans caused a surge in their hate. They appealed to the heartburn in their esophagus’s, not their hearts and minds.
I think the voter apathy is really what has them winning. The fact that people can recognize that the DNC seeks to do nothing, and somehow have been tricked into thinking this means their votes mean nothing, or that they can’t be changed.
We, on the other hand, have been hitting them over the head with their own racism and stupidity, ignoring the reasons they’re doing what they’re doing - and how we’re playing into Republican hands by doing this over and over.
I don’t think its this at all. In fact, when we stopped doing this is when their votes went up. People largely respond to democrats actually fighting for something instead of saying “at least we arent that other guy”.
The democrats currently, as a group, come across as “We’ll change nothing” and thats the problem. Its a problem that can be fixed though.
Now is the time to build the progressive party as a big tent - if you hold one progressive tenant, you’re a democrat, goddamn it - and start inviting voters into it, with solutions to their problems and acceptance of their ass-backward views until we can soften and change them.
This mentality I actually believe is part of the problem. This speaks as if we’re all a part of the DNC, and we’re not.
Our levers to control this are as I described. Slow change through primaries, state and local politics.
We would all love if tommorow the Democrats turned around and started talking like Mamdani about practical solutions, but they don’t want to do that due to their donors, and the fact a shit ton of the old guard are just rich conservatives.
All these “we need to do X” that start with the DNC magically changing their incentive structure are in similar fairy tale land to a revolution. They misunderstand where the actual roadblocks are, and treat the DNC as if it weren’t currently antagonistic to their goals.
Yes its complex to say that the DNC is antagonistic to your goals but you need to support the Democrats anyways with a full chest, but the world is complex, and this is the reality of a winner takes all/first past the post system. There are 2 major parties, eventually, always under these systems, and you pick the least bad one, and force it to change slowly.
We both agree the party has to be changed from within. We agree on basically everything. I do not hope everyone starts talking like Mamdani tomorrow. I’m in Arkansas, formerly blue and now red (like my home state of Iowa). Absolutely zero people here, within either the Dem party or the progressive coalitions working outside of it, would say “what works in NYC will work here.” People are not there yet. We have to meet them where they are so we can change their hearts and minds.
What will work here is the simple message “we know you’re at or beyond financial ruin, we have the only solution.”
What won’t work is "let’s divide ourselves as progressives vs. establishment, pro vs tepid trans support, split every hair and make ourselves look like the weak navel-gazers they paint us as. Stop dithering about who is “DNC” and who isn’t. That’s the problem right there. We are all DNC. We are all progressive. We are all one.
Unity. It’s what the Republicans started with the Southern strategy, which I know is real because I saw it flip two states, starting way back in the 80s when AM radio was quietly taken over. AM radio was in fact a brilliant way to reach the rural folks and start a populist campaign, which the bore fruit in the 90s and 00s as the party began evolving away from old ideals. They had one message - “those city folks want to destroy your good, wholesome, Christian way of life.” From there the party itself reinvented itself (multiple times over) not at the ballot box, but by powerful people within the party who knew how to crack whips and enact reform. We need to identify and empower these people within the Democratic party, and that might mean putting side differences to build the big tent coalition we need.
I do not hope everyone starts talking like Mamdani tomorrow.
Mamdani talked for NYC and its problems. My hypothetical Mamdani would just be quick witted, and talk about active solutions for the people, but on the federal scale. I by no means think people would magically agree to everything Mamdani is talking about. It was about a shift in messaging to being about pragmatic change for the people. not fighting progressives within the party etc.
What won’t work is "let’s divide ourselves as progressives vs. establishment, pro vs tepid trans support, split every hair and make ourselves look like the weak navel-gazers they paint us as. Stop dithering about **who is “DNC” and who isn’t. **
Im not sure I follow that last part. The DNC is a very real organization with very real leaders and goals. Its not something that is disputed, its a factual, existing organization.
We need to identify and empower these people within the Democratic party, and that might mean putting side differences to build the big tent coalition we need.
Part of the problem, is that you need a draw, and if you can’t use hate, you have to use appealing to the common person with change. The idea that its about a bigger tent, is something that needs change within the DNC/Old gaurd too.
They don’t seem to want to accept the progressive elements, and Im not talking about the people online who say nonsense about third parties or revolutions, I mean people like AOC, Bernie, Mamdani. They fight them tooth and nail, and thats part of the problem. Of course, as I mentioned, we can’t solve that though, as we’re not part of the DNC, hence the solution I recommend.
We, on the other hand, have been hitting them over the head with their own racism and stupidity
Why in my part of the world, in the Philippines the center-left movement failed in toppling Duterte because in their blind obsession with purity and hubris of self-proclaimed intelligence, they mostly blamed the lower-class voter base for their supposed ignorance.
The practical buckleys tagline solution you all hate but is the only one that works is supporting the fuck out of the democrats
where is the evidence that this “works”?
were the democrats not in charge after the first trump term an utterly failed to do anything? and I don’t mean they tried but failed, they didn’t even triy
same as Obama, he could/should have prosecuted Bush for any of the many war crimes but instead immediately let them all of the hook with the “let bygones be bygones” crap
I absolutely agree a civil war would be awful but I think you are waaaaaay past fixing this by voting… much less voting for the same party that has shown to love the status quo so much
were the democrats not in charge after the first trump term an utterly failed to do anything?
Like passing a huge infastructure package, buying a shit ton more vaccines, attempting to and partially succeeding at college debt relief for a large number of people, imposing a minimum corporate tax rate and more?
They didn’t do nothing, they just didn’t provide you the world in one term. You were never getting that, and even if magically your perfect government was voted in tommorow, they wouldn’t be able to give you that without a super majority, and even then it would still probably take more than one term.
More than all of that though, your comment completely misses the rest of my comment to use one part of it out of context to pretend I said changing nothing about the democratic party would be the solution. Thats very bad faith of you.
Are you denying that if people had voted for the democrats just a few percent more this year project 2025 would not have been stopped, as trump likely would be dead when it came time for the next event?
If people stayed sharp, they would be kept down.
Of course the DNC could do more. The question is could you, the people, do any less to secure your democracy.
The DNC is far from perfect, but what they do is out of our control except in the ways I literally covered at the start of this chain.
I don’t get how people act like there should just be this sudden moment where once and for all fascists will disappear. It will and has always been a continuous fight.
Are you denying that if people had voted for the democrats just a few percent more this year project 2025 would not have been stopped, as trump likely would be dead when it came time for the next event?
we can’t know the alternative timeline where the democrats would have won; but if their past behaviour is any indication they would have acted over confident and let the republicans walk all over them as before
what we can do is look at the present and easily see that the fascist grab of power is basically complete and there is zero chance they will give up power (last time they literally led an insurrection to avoid giving up power)
Of course the DNC could do more. The question is could you, the people, do any less to secure your democracy.
I’m canadian but your are making my point, Americans are too gaslit, selfish and uninformed to even vote rationaly
I don’t get how people act like there should just be this sudden moment where once and for all fascists will disappear. It will and has always been a continuous fight.
do you think the magas would be this enboldened if any republican had been accountable?
we can’t know the alternative timeline where the democrats would have won; but if their past behaviour is any indication they would have acted over confident and let the republicans walk all over them as before
In what universe does this make any sense. The republicans wouldn’t have the political power to do that.
what we can do is look at the present and easily see that the fascist grab of power is basically complete and there is zero chance they will give up power
And until that happens, there is no point in try to get people not to participate.
I’m canadian but your are making my point, Americans are too gaslit, selfish and uninformed to even vote rationaly
And you only help that with your encouragement of voter apathy.
do you think the magas would be this enboldened if any republican had been accountable?
I’m not arguing against that, Im pointing out that its a constant fight, not one battle.
In what universe does this make any sense. The republicans wouldn’t have the political power to do that.
They had no legal power to block Obama’s SCOTUS nomination, yet they did. They had no legal power nor justification to claim trump’s reelection had been stolen, yet they forced an insurrection. trump currently does not have any legal power to do half the stuff he is gleefully doing.
You seem to think MAGAs act within the boundaries of the law… must be nice to be so innocent
And until that happens, there is no point in try to get people not to participate.
First of, I have ever said people should not vote. I am simply stating the fact that it will not be enough, not anymore.
Second, you keep the “until that happens” as if that make any sense… You are the one moving the goal post here to justify inaction. You do not want to sacrifice anything to get your country out of the hole you allow it to get… and news flash, once the power grab is complete (you are 98% there) there will be no option left… every minute you allow to pass doing fuck all, is a minute you are closer to having NO OPTIONS LEFT
And you only help that with your encouragement of voter apathy.
Read above… and try to make an effort this time
I’m not arguing against that, Im pointing out that its a constant fight, not one battle.
Yet your “strategy” here is to do nothing an wait 19 months to cast a ballot… where did I say it was one battle?
You seem to think MAGAs act within the boundaries of the law… must be nice to be so innocent
In no universe could anything I said be reasonably summarized as this. Its actually pretty ridiculous this is the conclusion you came to.
First of, I have ever said people should not vote.
Because implications don’t exist right?
I am simply stating the fact that it will not be enough, not anymore.
Which just encourages people not to vote if you’re saying it doesnt help.
Second, you keep the “until that happens” as if that make any sense… You are the one moving the goal post here to justify inaction.
Im sorry bud, what actions are there exactly that you’re so willing to step up to take?
As far as I understand it, any action that I’m advocating for is apparently justifying inaction, but actions further than that would mean you couldn’t be talking to me right now.
You do not want to sacrifice anything to get your country out of the hole you allow it to get… and news flash, once the power grab is complete (you are 98% there) there will be no option left… every minute you allow to pass doing fuck all, is a minute you are closer to having NO OPTIONS LEFT
Once again, what are you doing buddy?
Yet your “strategy” here is to do nothing an wait 19 months to cast a ballot… where did I say it was one battle?
You really like to imply a shit ton from nothing so that you can argue against strawmen dont you.
Democracy works when you actually take part in it. The people have become so apathetic and think that voting is doing everything they need to do. It’s actually the least they need to do. Most of the decisions and the candidates have already been chosen by the time you vote on it. The real work happens between elections, not during them.
Change the party. Change the ideas. Get active. Change the people. It’s the only way you’ll have someone worth voting for.
If everyone took part in the society they wanted to create the world would be a different place. The people in power stay in power because people like you give up before you even try.
If you don’t want to help then get out of the way for those who do.
People, you’ve gotta stop waiting for a revolution.
Economic collapse is getting uncomfortably closer, however, due to what is clearly unrestrained greed and abuse. It’s not just the continental US that would be affected but also would pull down a lot of countries economically dependent on it in varying degrees.
In addition to whole governments traditionally allied with the US, this includes minorities who usually remit a portion of their earnings to relatives in their home countries.
Its interesting that both comments that push the nonsense of voter apathy and non participation in the only political system you have needed to completely take a singular part of a multi stage solution out of context to attempt to ridicule it.
If I had just said supporting the democrats and left it at there you might have had a point, actually no, you still wouldn’t as the “light it all on fire mentality” is just anti human. Instead though, you have a very poorly constructed strawman argument, and the response to the other person with a similar style of comment is just as applicable here, but even more so since you are so blatant in your misrepresentation.
The question starts out with a strawman argument. The full comment included “All that time, youll need to replace the old guard with more progressive members through overwhelming support in primaries, and being active in state and local politics.”
There also aren’t many countries that have the same political situations as the USA. What other countries are democratic republics with extremely slow constitutional and political inertia, top class military and insane intelligence capabilities.
The question doesnt make sense. This is a one of one.
People, you’ve gotta stop waiting for a revolution.
Any “solution” that starts with “you first” and involves fighting against forces that vastly out gun you, with people you absolutely would not agree to fight with is a complete non starter.
You have to realize that even if such a revolution happened, after it happened, they’d just pick the same systems that lead to that result.
You want a hail mary but you will not get it.
The practical buckleys tagline solution you all hate but is the only one that works is supporting the fuck out of the democrats in not only the short term (to stop so many people from being harmed), but in the long term too, this way they can’t just use the right as an excuse to go to the right. All that time, youll need to replace the old guard with more progressive members through overwhelming support in primaries, and being active in state and local politics.
Thats the only way forward where you can win, and its a lot more feasible and less painful than any revolution fantasies. In any of those fantasies, its more likely your head rolls than any of the ghouls we all hate.
No one is coming to save us. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for.
When Elon Musk and all the other now-mainstream-weirdos started calling for a civil war, it should have been a wakeup to progressives - this is not in your best interest.
Taking back the average middle-class voter will require changing hearts and minds. That’s what the Republicans did to them. We, on the other hand, have been hitting them over the head with their own racism and stupidity, ignoring the reasons they’re doing what they’re doing - and how we’re playing into Republican hands by doing this over and over.
Now is the time to build the progressive party as a big tent - if you hold one progressive tenant, you’re a democrat, goddamn it - and start inviting voters into it, with solutions to their problems and acceptance of their ass-backward views until we can soften and change them.
I believe this is the only path forward.
I don’t think this part is true. I agree with the part before this, but not this.
The republicans caused a surge in their hate. They appealed to the heartburn in their esophagus’s, not their hearts and minds.
I think the voter apathy is really what has them winning. The fact that people can recognize that the DNC seeks to do nothing, and somehow have been tricked into thinking this means their votes mean nothing, or that they can’t be changed.
I don’t think its this at all. In fact, when we stopped doing this is when their votes went up. People largely respond to democrats actually fighting for something instead of saying “at least we arent that other guy”.
The democrats currently, as a group, come across as “We’ll change nothing” and thats the problem. Its a problem that can be fixed though.
This mentality I actually believe is part of the problem. This speaks as if we’re all a part of the DNC, and we’re not.
Our levers to control this are as I described. Slow change through primaries, state and local politics.
We would all love if tommorow the Democrats turned around and started talking like Mamdani about practical solutions, but they don’t want to do that due to their donors, and the fact a shit ton of the old guard are just rich conservatives.
All these “we need to do X” that start with the DNC magically changing their incentive structure are in similar fairy tale land to a revolution. They misunderstand where the actual roadblocks are, and treat the DNC as if it weren’t currently antagonistic to their goals.
Yes its complex to say that the DNC is antagonistic to your goals but you need to support the Democrats anyways with a full chest, but the world is complex, and this is the reality of a winner takes all/first past the post system. There are 2 major parties, eventually, always under these systems, and you pick the least bad one, and force it to change slowly.
We both agree the party has to be changed from within. We agree on basically everything. I do not hope everyone starts talking like Mamdani tomorrow. I’m in Arkansas, formerly blue and now red (like my home state of Iowa). Absolutely zero people here, within either the Dem party or the progressive coalitions working outside of it, would say “what works in NYC will work here.” People are not there yet. We have to meet them where they are so we can change their hearts and minds.
What will work here is the simple message “we know you’re at or beyond financial ruin, we have the only solution.”
What won’t work is "let’s divide ourselves as progressives vs. establishment, pro vs tepid trans support, split every hair and make ourselves look like the weak navel-gazers they paint us as. Stop dithering about who is “DNC” and who isn’t. That’s the problem right there. We are all DNC. We are all progressive. We are all one.
Unity. It’s what the Republicans started with the Southern strategy, which I know is real because I saw it flip two states, starting way back in the 80s when AM radio was quietly taken over. AM radio was in fact a brilliant way to reach the rural folks and start a populist campaign, which the bore fruit in the 90s and 00s as the party began evolving away from old ideals. They had one message - “those city folks want to destroy your good, wholesome, Christian way of life.” From there the party itself reinvented itself (multiple times over) not at the ballot box, but by powerful people within the party who knew how to crack whips and enact reform. We need to identify and empower these people within the Democratic party, and that might mean putting side differences to build the big tent coalition we need.
Mamdani talked for NYC and its problems. My hypothetical Mamdani would just be quick witted, and talk about active solutions for the people, but on the federal scale. I by no means think people would magically agree to everything Mamdani is talking about. It was about a shift in messaging to being about pragmatic change for the people. not fighting progressives within the party etc.
Im not sure I follow that last part. The DNC is a very real organization with very real leaders and goals. Its not something that is disputed, its a factual, existing organization.
Part of the problem, is that you need a draw, and if you can’t use hate, you have to use appealing to the common person with change. The idea that its about a bigger tent, is something that needs change within the DNC/Old gaurd too.
They don’t seem to want to accept the progressive elements, and Im not talking about the people online who say nonsense about third parties or revolutions, I mean people like AOC, Bernie, Mamdani. They fight them tooth and nail, and thats part of the problem. Of course, as I mentioned, we can’t solve that though, as we’re not part of the DNC, hence the solution I recommend.
is this the Democrats or a new party you are proposing?
Why in my part of the world, in the Philippines the center-left movement failed in toppling Duterte because in their blind obsession with purity and hubris of self-proclaimed intelligence, they mostly blamed the lower-class voter base for their supposed ignorance.
where is the evidence that this “works”?
were the democrats not in charge after the first trump term an utterly failed to do anything? and I don’t mean they tried but failed, they didn’t even triy
same as Obama, he could/should have prosecuted Bush for any of the many war crimes but instead immediately let them all of the hook with the “let bygones be bygones” crap
I absolutely agree a civil war would be awful but I think you are waaaaaay past fixing this by voting… much less voting for the same party that has shown to love the status quo so much
Like passing a huge infastructure package, buying a shit ton more vaccines, attempting to and partially succeeding at college debt relief for a large number of people, imposing a minimum corporate tax rate and more?
They didn’t do nothing, they just didn’t provide you the world in one term. You were never getting that, and even if magically your perfect government was voted in tommorow, they wouldn’t be able to give you that without a super majority, and even then it would still probably take more than one term.
More than all of that though, your comment completely misses the rest of my comment to use one part of it out of context to pretend I said changing nothing about the democratic party would be the solution. Thats very bad faith of you.
no, I’m referring about stopping fascism and protecting democracy and the rule of law
all else is secondary if everything is destroyed every other turn
Are you denying that if people had voted for the democrats just a few percent more this year project 2025 would not have been stopped, as trump likely would be dead when it came time for the next event?
If people stayed sharp, they would be kept down.
Of course the DNC could do more. The question is could you, the people, do any less to secure your democracy.
The DNC is far from perfect, but what they do is out of our control except in the ways I literally covered at the start of this chain.
I don’t get how people act like there should just be this sudden moment where once and for all fascists will disappear. It will and has always been a continuous fight.
we can’t know the alternative timeline where the democrats would have won; but if their past behaviour is any indication they would have acted over confident and let the republicans walk all over them as before
what we can do is look at the present and easily see that the fascist grab of power is basically complete and there is zero chance they will give up power (last time they literally led an insurrection to avoid giving up power)
I’m canadian but your are making my point, Americans are too gaslit, selfish and uninformed to even vote rationaly
do you think the magas would be this enboldened if any republican had been accountable?
In what universe does this make any sense. The republicans wouldn’t have the political power to do that.
And until that happens, there is no point in try to get people not to participate.
And you only help that with your encouragement of voter apathy.
I’m not arguing against that, Im pointing out that its a constant fight, not one battle.
They had no legal power to block Obama’s SCOTUS nomination, yet they did. They had no legal power nor justification to claim trump’s reelection had been stolen, yet they forced an insurrection. trump currently does not have any legal power to do half the stuff he is gleefully doing.
You seem to think MAGAs act within the boundaries of the law… must be nice to be so innocent
First of, I have ever said people should not vote. I am simply stating the fact that it will not be enough, not anymore.
Second, you keep the “until that happens” as if that make any sense… You are the one moving the goal post here to justify inaction. You do not want to sacrifice anything to get your country out of the hole you allow it to get… and news flash, once the power grab is complete (you are 98% there) there will be no option left… every minute you allow to pass doing fuck all, is a minute you are closer to having NO OPTIONS LEFT
Read above… and try to make an effort this time
Yet your “strategy” here is to do nothing an wait 19 months to cast a ballot… where did I say it was one battle?
Yup.
In no universe could anything I said be reasonably summarized as this. Its actually pretty ridiculous this is the conclusion you came to.
Because implications don’t exist right?
Which just encourages people not to vote if you’re saying it doesnt help.
Im sorry bud, what actions are there exactly that you’re so willing to step up to take?
As far as I understand it, any action that I’m advocating for is apparently justifying inaction, but actions further than that would mean you couldn’t be talking to me right now.
Once again, what are you doing buddy?
You really like to imply a shit ton from nothing so that you can argue against strawmen dont you.
Democracy works when you actually take part in it. The people have become so apathetic and think that voting is doing everything they need to do. It’s actually the least they need to do. Most of the decisions and the candidates have already been chosen by the time you vote on it. The real work happens between elections, not during them.
Change the party. Change the ideas. Get active. Change the people. It’s the only way you’ll have someone worth voting for.
I’m not saying democracy does not work, I’m saying the Democrats will not fix this problem
It’s like believing in fairies. Come on, kids! Do you believe?!?! Let’s save Tinkerbell!!! smh.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion
If everyone took part in the society they wanted to create the world would be a different place. The people in power stay in power because people like you give up before you even try.
If you don’t want to help then get out of the way for those who do.
Economic collapse is getting uncomfortably closer, however, due to what is clearly unrestrained greed and abuse. It’s not just the continental US that would be affected but also would pull down a lot of countries economically dependent on it in varying degrees.
In addition to whole governments traditionally allied with the US, this includes minorities who usually remit a portion of their earnings to relatives in their home countries.
lmao. Started strong then ended in complete fail. Dems are half of the two-“party” problem.
So Biden took us “forward” and had us “winning”? How’s that working out for ya?
Its interesting that both comments that push the nonsense of voter apathy and non participation in the only political system you have needed to completely take a singular part of a multi stage solution out of context to attempt to ridicule it.
If I had just said supporting the democrats and left it at there you might have had a point, actually no, you still wouldn’t as the “light it all on fire mentality” is just anti human. Instead though, you have a very poorly constructed strawman argument, and the response to the other person with a similar style of comment is just as applicable here, but even more so since you are so blatant in your misrepresentation.
They’re caving on the shutdown but sure. 🙄
Literally what part of that changes a single thing I’ve said here?
You have no solution.
You roll your eyes at the only one because its unpleasant.
Can you show any examples in other countries where rallying around the controlled opposition party was sufficient to reverse the tide of fascism?
The question starts out with a strawman argument. The full comment included “All that time, youll need to replace the old guard with more progressive members through overwhelming support in primaries, and being active in state and local politics.”
There also aren’t many countries that have the same political situations as the USA. What other countries are democratic republics with extremely slow constitutional and political inertia, top class military and insane intelligence capabilities.
The question doesnt make sense. This is a one of one.
deleted by creator