Right… since people never step in to fill a power vacuum and no matter their intentions become corrupt… because absolute power corrupts absolutely… and once you get a taste historically people want more…
Seizing the means and fantasizing about a functional democratic version of communism in the workplace is absurd…
The real goal should be to regulate the wage gap. Because the top won’t voluntarily shrink the wage gaps laws need to be in place or bargained for that set a limit to the gap between the top and bottom… i.e. the CEO can only ever make 30% more per year than the lowest paid employee in their business. That way when the business is more successful everyone is brought up. There is recognition that various roles have more or less responsibility (and should be compensated as such) but everyone in the org benefits equally when the org does better…
I mean under that same logic capitalism is always going to be corrupt because at its core it concentrates wealth and thus power at the top in the hands of a few. I’d rather at least try a way of organizing that puts the power in the hands of the people. No matter how much you try to regulate capitalism the rich will always try to gain more wealth and power.
And they’re engaging in one of my favorite logical pretzels: presenting their ignorance as proof in and of itself that their opponents are ignorant. “I don’t know what your plan is, which means you don’t have one!”
I think they also referenced Animal Farm, a book written by a socialist.
I mean… I’m not anti Union… have lived and worked in TX and CA… TX is as anti union as anywhere and it sucks because of it.
I’m anti corrupt unions, anti blind faith in “unions”, I’m anti overly simplistic internet bullshit rhetoric that sounds good in a vacuum but isn’t helpful in the world we live in…
But you do you Boo… nothing much our internet discourse here will accomplish other than both of us being annoyed and feeling morally superior to the other for no reason. 🍻
I’m anti corrupt unions, anti blind faith in “unions”, I’m anti overly simplistic internet bullshit rhetoric that sounds good in a vacuum but isn’t helpful in the world we live in…
We agree on all those points, even if you’re implying that my position is “overly simplistic internet bullshit rhetoric that sounds good in a vacuum but isn’t helpful in the world we live in.”
One way to make sure that no unions are corrupt is certainly to have no unions at all, but I highly doubt that that would reduce overall corruption in business. I believe it is better to have strong unions first, and address all corruption, wherever it hides, than to abandon unions and kneecap their ability to fight corruption in ownership. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
And you’re right. Elimination of unions across the board would absolutely not lead to a positive outcome.
I’ve just become cynical and disillusioned with society and that leaks out sometimes… but you’re right, we should not let perfect be the enemy of good. 🍻
Understanding what conditions lead to business unionism, in which the people at the top of the union no longer represent the rank and file members, is a vital part of the current labor movement. Every other post you have made in this thread lack any nuance whatsoever.
Rank and file union members need a militant approach to business owners. Being apart of a union isn’t just paying dues and expecting other people will take care of it. No full time union staff should take home more than the average union member wage, keep their skin in the game and give them a reason to fight. Unions power doesn’t come from a leaders ability to negotiate with the bosses, it is in fact the opposite, unions leadership ability to negotiate comes from the power of the rank and file members.
I agree… unregulated capitalism will always be corrupt. We’re seeing that now…
But again… you literally can’t place power in the hands of the people because someone (or a small cabal) will always rise to the top and assume control and we end up in the same spot under a different name…
If you looks at history “regulated” capitalism eventually deregulates because it’s in the interests of the rich to do so and even “regulated” capitalism has exploited the global south for decades and decades. I reject your idea that a few will always rise to the top and be malicious with the power, but even saying that’s true how is that any worse than the current state? I would rather at least try to find a new way to do things than resigning the world to having this be its peak where millions are hungry and destitute.
Yes, we’ve already seen that in every version of “owners taking advantage of labor” from feudalism to capitalism has tended to produce corrupt people at the top. It’s kind of built into that kind of system. People are incorrectly assuming that changing the fundamental system to “labor produces and is compensated for it” will experience the same corruption. Maybe it will, if corrupt people gain ownership of that system, and take it back to “owners taking advantage of labor.”
But how about we fucking give it a try and see what happens? You’re right; it can’t be worse than what we already have.
Right… since people never step in to fill a power vacuum and no matter their intentions become corrupt… because absolute power corrupts absolutely… and once you get a taste historically people want more…
Seizing the means and fantasizing about a functional democratic version of communism in the workplace is absurd…
The real goal should be to regulate the wage gap. Because the top won’t voluntarily shrink the wage gaps laws need to be in place or bargained for that set a limit to the gap between the top and bottom… i.e. the CEO can only ever make 30% more per year than the lowest paid employee in their business. That way when the business is more successful everyone is brought up. There is recognition that various roles have more or less responsibility (and should be compensated as such) but everyone in the org benefits equally when the org does better…
I mean under that same logic capitalism is always going to be corrupt because at its core it concentrates wealth and thus power at the top in the hands of a few. I’d rather at least try a way of organizing that puts the power in the hands of the people. No matter how much you try to regulate capitalism the rich will always try to gain more wealth and power.
Seems like the anti-union people are out in force this morning, huh?
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And they’re engaging in one of my favorite logical pretzels: presenting their ignorance as proof in and of itself that their opponents are ignorant. “I don’t know what your plan is, which means you don’t have one!”
I think they also referenced Animal Farm, a book written by a socialist.
I mean… I’m not anti Union… have lived and worked in TX and CA… TX is as anti union as anywhere and it sucks because of it.
I’m anti corrupt unions, anti blind faith in “unions”, I’m anti overly simplistic internet bullshit rhetoric that sounds good in a vacuum but isn’t helpful in the world we live in…
But you do you Boo… nothing much our internet discourse here will accomplish other than both of us being annoyed and feeling morally superior to the other for no reason. 🍻
We agree on all those points, even if you’re implying that my position is “overly simplistic internet bullshit rhetoric that sounds good in a vacuum but isn’t helpful in the world we live in.”
One way to make sure that no unions are corrupt is certainly to have no unions at all, but I highly doubt that that would reduce overall corruption in business. I believe it is better to have strong unions first, and address all corruption, wherever it hides, than to abandon unions and kneecap their ability to fight corruption in ownership. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Fair nuff friendo.
And you’re right. Elimination of unions across the board would absolutely not lead to a positive outcome.
I’ve just become cynical and disillusioned with society and that leaks out sometimes… but you’re right, we should not let perfect be the enemy of good. 🍻
And you said nothing good would come from discourse.
👊
I’m a big enough man to admit when I’m wrong. Well done fellow Lemming. Appreciate the respectful discourse. 🍻🤛
Understanding what conditions lead to business unionism, in which the people at the top of the union no longer represent the rank and file members, is a vital part of the current labor movement. Every other post you have made in this thread lack any nuance whatsoever.
Rank and file union members need a militant approach to business owners. Being apart of a union isn’t just paying dues and expecting other people will take care of it. No full time union staff should take home more than the average union member wage, keep their skin in the game and give them a reason to fight. Unions power doesn’t come from a leaders ability to negotiate with the bosses, it is in fact the opposite, unions leadership ability to negotiate comes from the power of the rank and file members.
I agree… unregulated capitalism will always be corrupt. We’re seeing that now…
But again… you literally can’t place power in the hands of the people because someone (or a small cabal) will always rise to the top and assume control and we end up in the same spot under a different name…
If you looks at history “regulated” capitalism eventually deregulates because it’s in the interests of the rich to do so and even “regulated” capitalism has exploited the global south for decades and decades. I reject your idea that a few will always rise to the top and be malicious with the power, but even saying that’s true how is that any worse than the current state? I would rather at least try to find a new way to do things than resigning the world to having this be its peak where millions are hungry and destitute.
Echoing you here:
Yes, we’ve already seen that in every version of “owners taking advantage of labor” from feudalism to capitalism has tended to produce corrupt people at the top. It’s kind of built into that kind of system. People are incorrectly assuming that changing the fundamental system to “labor produces and is compensated for it” will experience the same corruption. Maybe it will, if corrupt people gain ownership of that system, and take it back to “owners taking advantage of labor.”
But how about we fucking give it a try and see what happens? You’re right; it can’t be worse than what we already have.