Rubber banding shit to make skill mismatches still competitive is a dogshit excuse for game design that completely and utterly destroys the integrity of competition.
We are not talking about evenly-matched teams. The integrity of dirt-tier matches is ruined by pros on fresh accounts. People so infatuated with a child’s view of “competition” that nothing matters besides winning. Teamwork? Sportsmanship? Fun? Fuck that, just win win win win win win win.
Skill-based matchmaking is already a judgement call for how well you’re supposed to do. And each long-ass match is rife with ways to judge how well a player is doing - moment to moment - relative to their teammates, their situation, and their character. Measuring and rewarding individual skill is possible even if your team gets utterly destroyed. Or carried by one cheating bastard.
Games can be fun to play for reasons besides ‘did you win.’ Success and growth can be about more than ‘don’t lose.’ This is a game that takes ten people forty-five minutes to play. Reducing it to a binary outcome, as if that’s the only metric for “the integrity of competition,” is the root problem.
Games can be fun to play for reasons besides ‘did you win.’
They’re fun when they’re fair. They’re not fun when they’re not fair. Losing fairly is part of the experience. Losing unfairly isn’t. Winning unfairly isn’t.
Rubber banding isn’t unconditionally horse shit game design in every context because of the end result. It’s because it fundamentally breaks the mechanics of the game. A high skill ceiling isn’t a design flaw. It’s the entire purpose of the game.
Fair games won’t be affected. Evenly-matched teams do not need this.
Anything can become a flaw when it causes awful results. Every system is perfectly designed to produce its observed outcomes. MOBAs are all toxic as fuck - that’s no accident. The choices shared by these games, cause the problems shared by these games.
These are systemic problems. They cannot be solved by attacking the symptoms. You have to address the cause.
If you could magically identify smurfs, you could just put them at the level they should be or ban them without putting them in a match. There’s no such thing as rubber banding that only affects cheating.
A meaningful skill gap resulting in a rout is the whole point of a competitive game. It’s the definition of a competitive game. It’s why people are playing. Go play a casual game with a low skill ceiling it that’s what you want to play. Don’t play a game with a high one then demand that they break it.
There is no possible scenario where rubber banding can ever be better than dogshit game design. The core concept is incompatible with sound mechanics. The person playing better is supposed to get better results.
If you could magically identify smurfs, you could just put them at the level they should be or ban them without putting them in a match
That’s what league does. If it detects early on that you’re probably a smurf, you get tossed into smurf queue where you’ll face other experienced players, and it’s pretty reliable. Both times I’ve made new accounts, I’ve almost immediately gotten placed with experienced players, usually before the account graduates beyond bot games
Low-tier matches have a lower skill ceiling. That is what makes them… low-tier. We are only talking about those matches, and we are only talking about when one player is obviously, measurably, operating on a higher level. If a pro joins some newbies and plays like a newbie - there is no problem.
Even so:
Playing better will always get better results. There are no blue shells in DOTA. Winning isn’t random. Making the game slightly more difficult for people demonstrably kicking ass doesn’t have to stop them from kicking ass. Just make their contribution reasonable for a game that is supposed to be a team effort in the minor leagues.
Skill ceiling is a concept completely independent of the players involved. It’s a trait of the game itself.
A lower skill played having the game of their life playing way above and beyond the other players in the match is supposed to see the results that match that. A lower ranked player learning quickly and progressing faster than average is supposed to see results that reflect that. Having a great match and being nerfed because some idiot thinks it’s broken for you to see the success that fair mechanics earn you isn’t a good experience. Having your performances nerfed by rubber banding also keeps you from getting better by not having your successful and unsuccessful actions provide the consistent feedback correct mechanics do. On top of that, it completely destroys the matchmaking mechanics by not having the outcome be the rout it’s supposed to be when one player is significantly better.
Rubber banding is not a valid solution to any problem in any context. It’s proof that you don’t understand anything about games.
Skill ceiling is both meta and mechanics. That’s why new tech raises the ceiling. What people do matters as much as what’s possible. The game doesn’t have to change, for gameplay to change.
And if we’re talking about smurfing, we’re talking about the game being played badly. Naively. By amateurs. Or at best by experienced played who can’t manage to get their shit together.
Detecting when someone’s doing better than the rank of the current match is how ranking works. It’s not some impossible magic trick. It’s a judgement the game already makes, and that decision already affects people. If you do really well - you get moved to a different group, where you are more likely to get your ass kicked.
When ranking works, the only feedback for your skill is that rank. You will still lose half the time. You will get outmaneuvered half the time. Your execution is on-par with everyone else in the match.
… do you think handing one player an effortless victory is how matchmaking is supposed to work? My guy, one player managing a “rout” is the problem smurfing causes. It’s why Valve is handing out bans.
Look, I can see where you’re coming from about the over-emphasis on winning; but it just sound like you’re talking about an entirely different issue to what Valve is trying to address.
Your suggestion, if I understand it correctly, is to have the game automatically make a judgement about every player’s individual skill during the match itself, and apply some buff or penalty if it detects a major discrepancy between players. Is that what you are suggesting?
I suspect that the existence of mechanics like that would lead to a lot of angst, regardless of whether it ‘works’. People already have a tendency to blame their team and blame match-making for making them lose. Imagine if they could also blame the game itself for holding them back. … It could be a perfect system that never gets it wrong, and it would still cause a lot of people to get upset. And I don’t see how it could fix the problem of smurfing anyway unless it is a seriously over-zealous system that erases basically any skill advantage.
Also, I don’t think such auto-detection would be reliable. But although we could could discuss the technicalities of what might or might not work… I just don’t think it’s worth pursuing in dota anyway. Perhaps it would be better suited to some other game.
I am describing an autobalance system, in low tiers. Specifically in low tiers. Only in low tiers.
And being “held back” means the game is applauding you. If some newbie genuinely achieves enlightenment and begins playing at a superhuman level, then win or lose, the game is telling them ‘holy shit, well done.’
Which is how ranking already works. I cannot overstress, the game already sets people up to get their asses kicked half the time. It watches how you play, scores your performance, and pits you against people who are going to counteract whatever new tricks you’ve just learned.
This is only a more direct application of that value-above-replacement estimate. In low tiers. Because nobody cares if some top-percentile player wrecks a lobby full of top-decile players.
Fuck all of this.
Rubber banding shit to make skill mismatches still competitive is a dogshit excuse for game design that completely and utterly destroys the integrity of competition.
Evenly-matched teams won’t need any.
We are not talking about evenly-matched teams. The integrity of dirt-tier matches is ruined by pros on fresh accounts. People so infatuated with a child’s view of “competition” that nothing matters besides winning. Teamwork? Sportsmanship? Fun? Fuck that, just win win win win win win win.
Skill-based matchmaking is already a judgement call for how well you’re supposed to do. And each long-ass match is rife with ways to judge how well a player is doing - moment to moment - relative to their teammates, their situation, and their character. Measuring and rewarding individual skill is possible even if your team gets utterly destroyed. Or carried by one cheating bastard.
Games can be fun to play for reasons besides ‘did you win.’ Success and growth can be about more than ‘don’t lose.’ This is a game that takes ten people forty-five minutes to play. Reducing it to a binary outcome, as if that’s the only metric for “the integrity of competition,” is the root problem.
They’re fun when they’re fair. They’re not fun when they’re not fair. Losing fairly is part of the experience. Losing unfairly isn’t. Winning unfairly isn’t.
Rubber banding isn’t unconditionally horse shit game design in every context because of the end result. It’s because it fundamentally breaks the mechanics of the game. A high skill ceiling isn’t a design flaw. It’s the entire purpose of the game.
Smurfed games aren’t fair.
Fair games won’t be affected. Evenly-matched teams do not need this.
Anything can become a flaw when it causes awful results. Every system is perfectly designed to produce its observed outcomes. MOBAs are all toxic as fuck - that’s no accident. The choices shared by these games, cause the problems shared by these games.
These are systemic problems. They cannot be solved by attacking the symptoms. You have to address the cause.
If you could magically identify smurfs, you could just put them at the level they should be or ban them without putting them in a match. There’s no such thing as rubber banding that only affects cheating.
A meaningful skill gap resulting in a rout is the whole point of a competitive game. It’s the definition of a competitive game. It’s why people are playing. Go play a casual game with a low skill ceiling it that’s what you want to play. Don’t play a game with a high one then demand that they break it.
There is no possible scenario where rubber banding can ever be better than dogshit game design. The core concept is incompatible with sound mechanics. The person playing better is supposed to get better results.
That’s what league does. If it detects early on that you’re probably a smurf, you get tossed into smurf queue where you’ll face other experienced players, and it’s pretty reliable. Both times I’ve made new accounts, I’ve almost immediately gotten placed with experienced players, usually before the account graduates beyond bot games
Low-tier matches have a lower skill ceiling. That is what makes them… low-tier. We are only talking about those matches, and we are only talking about when one player is obviously, measurably, operating on a higher level. If a pro joins some newbies and plays like a newbie - there is no problem.
Even so:
Playing better will always get better results. There are no blue shells in DOTA. Winning isn’t random. Making the game slightly more difficult for people demonstrably kicking ass doesn’t have to stop them from kicking ass. Just make their contribution reasonable for a game that is supposed to be a team effort in the minor leagues.
Skill ceiling is a concept completely independent of the players involved. It’s a trait of the game itself.
A lower skill played having the game of their life playing way above and beyond the other players in the match is supposed to see the results that match that. A lower ranked player learning quickly and progressing faster than average is supposed to see results that reflect that. Having a great match and being nerfed because some idiot thinks it’s broken for you to see the success that fair mechanics earn you isn’t a good experience. Having your performances nerfed by rubber banding also keeps you from getting better by not having your successful and unsuccessful actions provide the consistent feedback correct mechanics do. On top of that, it completely destroys the matchmaking mechanics by not having the outcome be the rout it’s supposed to be when one player is significantly better.
Rubber banding is not a valid solution to any problem in any context. It’s proof that you don’t understand anything about games.
Skill ceiling is both meta and mechanics. That’s why new tech raises the ceiling. What people do matters as much as what’s possible. The game doesn’t have to change, for gameplay to change.
And if we’re talking about smurfing, we’re talking about the game being played badly. Naively. By amateurs. Or at best by experienced played who can’t manage to get their shit together.
Detecting when someone’s doing better than the rank of the current match is how ranking works. It’s not some impossible magic trick. It’s a judgement the game already makes, and that decision already affects people. If you do really well - you get moved to a different group, where you are more likely to get your ass kicked.
When ranking works, the only feedback for your skill is that rank. You will still lose half the time. You will get outmaneuvered half the time. Your execution is on-par with everyone else in the match.
… do you think handing one player an effortless victory is how matchmaking is supposed to work? My guy, one player managing a “rout” is the problem smurfing causes. It’s why Valve is handing out bans.
Look, I can see where you’re coming from about the over-emphasis on winning; but it just sound like you’re talking about an entirely different issue to what Valve is trying to address.
Your suggestion, if I understand it correctly, is to have the game automatically make a judgement about every player’s individual skill during the match itself, and apply some buff or penalty if it detects a major discrepancy between players. Is that what you are suggesting?
I suspect that the existence of mechanics like that would lead to a lot of angst, regardless of whether it ‘works’. People already have a tendency to blame their team and blame match-making for making them lose. Imagine if they could also blame the game itself for holding them back. … It could be a perfect system that never gets it wrong, and it would still cause a lot of people to get upset. And I don’t see how it could fix the problem of smurfing anyway unless it is a seriously over-zealous system that erases basically any skill advantage.
Also, I don’t think such auto-detection would be reliable. But although we could could discuss the technicalities of what might or might not work… I just don’t think it’s worth pursuing in dota anyway. Perhaps it would be better suited to some other game.
… in low tiers.
I am describing an autobalance system, in low tiers. Specifically in low tiers. Only in low tiers.
And being “held back” means the game is applauding you. If some newbie genuinely achieves enlightenment and begins playing at a superhuman level, then win or lose, the game is telling them ‘holy shit, well done.’
Which is how ranking already works. I cannot overstress, the game already sets people up to get their asses kicked half the time. It watches how you play, scores your performance, and pits you against people who are going to counteract whatever new tricks you’ve just learned.
This is only a more direct application of that value-above-replacement estimate. In low tiers. Because nobody cares if some top-percentile player wrecks a lobby full of top-decile players.