Milei is not making “the caste” pay. Milei is making workers pay. And Massa was not the president. He was the Superminister of Economy. And in Argentina, that is a big deal. But I’m not aware of him defying the Constitution in his tenure.
Now, forgive me for believing the right, who aims to mantain it’s privileges every time they feel they are slightly threatened, can’t be trusted.
Except that… he’s already making the Caste pay?.. 2 out of his 3 Decrees so far have already cut A LOT of Political Priviledges and Money making schemes planted by the Peronists, and more are to come out of his words. Sure the workers are paying too i’ll give you that.
And yes, Massa was the President, of course not in an official way because that would be unconstitutional and Political Suicide, on the Most Peronist fashion it was all done under the rug. As soon as Massa assumed his charge the President Alberto Fernandez LITERALLY dissapeared from Public View AND Executively did NOTHING the rest of his mandate. Massa took his place both in Public Acts and on actually ordering the Country. There’s no way to make this shit up given how blatant it was
I don’t think you’re getting my point. The caste is composed of corrupt politicians, corporatioms that lobby the state, unnecesary assistants, etc. Congresspersons are not seeing their salarys reduced, nor are they having a more strict set of rules when it comes to assisting to sessions.
Corporations are not paying anything. They are not being affected. Aristocracie has the same tax regime, there is no tax on bigger fortunes that enables some load of the measures to be lifted from the workers, and they’re getting the chance to buy state companys that are direct competition. There is also the elimination of price regulations and observation policy, so literally they can and will charge as much as they want (and yes, you could say that if you can’t afford it, don’t pay for it, but what about the food!?)
On democracy and freedoms, freedoms are being reduced (Bulrich’s anti-picket protocol failed tremendously given that the streets were indeed cut off, althought not cut off by the manifestants). Right wing extremist are threatening leftist politicians, as you have seen with Espert. United Left Front parliamentary Natalia Morales was anonymously threatened with “not seeing sunlight ever again”.
Listen, I get the critics of peronism are valid. And I wholeheartedly agree that they have to be accountable of the wrongs they did and keep doing. What I do not and can not condone is the " on laws ground everything, out of them nothing" rethoric and then unconstitutionalism. If Peronism politicians do it is wrong. If leftist politicians do it is wrong. You can not fuck up the CN. If right wingers do it is also wrong. You can not say “well, peronist do it”. Because that is not the way it works when you said all the heavy things you said when in campaign.
And then we could go and analyze why most of what Milei said on campaign was wrong. We cpuld start iith his bashing of aocialism and communism when, he may not know what the hell those are, because he does not appear to know how they work or the definitions, or he knows but finds amusing to spew lies.
We could go on and prove markets are not good at autoregulation, we could prove that economic growth does not equal life quality, climate change is obviously real and denying it should be penalized in my opinion because scientific consensus on the matter is hella strong, etc.
We can argue for hours about all of this things. And again, the caste should pay. But they’re not. Because those who made themselves rich on the workers labor, sweat and tears are not having any privileges being taken away. They are just getting more chances at exploiting.
Hello there, I actually kept your comment’s notification on my inbox this whole time, since you sounded reasonable and had an in depht-view of the events that ocurred at the time
Given the current state now, a whole year later of impact, if it’s not much trouble can I ask for opinions or thoughts if you have kept watch?
Hi! Ok. There is a lot to unpack.
First of all, thank you for your kind wprds. And for being so interested in the topic.
A year of Milei can be sintetized with “he made impressive economic feats… which were paid for by the working class”.
It is true, inflation is down, prices are more stable, dollars are stable also. He did a lot. I would be praising him if not for the fact that the working class got to, again, pay the bills of the capitalists.
In his campaign, he promised that the " caste", a vague invented group composed of mostly politicians and businessmans, would pay the price of the exonomic shock and also would be on the receiving end of the harsher policoes, if you will. That, however, as many of us in the left knew, wasn’t gonna happen. And it did not. So, the economics part was real, but he lied on the basic premise of his campaign winning argument.
Then, we have the social dimension of his government. And here is worse: he rules by decree instead of by consensus, mischaracterises every politocian or entity that disagrees with him as corrupt, bad,lobbied, communist, socialist, leftist, etc.
1 in 3 protests are repressed by police ilegally (the methods are illegal, properly speaking).
He made it easier for his followers to be more violent, regularly demosntrates disdain for LGBT folks, leftists, and so on.
He does not exhibit any apparent understanding of how democracies are supposed to work, with his party bribing congressmans for votes, even when the laws thay propose are unconstitutional.
They are also using state mobile apps as propaganda for the government.
It’s 4am here, so sorry if I sound a little all over the place. This is my view. I’d advise to research more on this, via different nws source taht have different editorial lines, as to avoid getting only one point of view of the topics I talked about.
All in all, economic fixes are worth nothing, in my opinion, if the working class gets destroyed and the rich get more and more rich.
Hello there, thanks for getting back, I have also kept some watch through different mediums and I can agree on most terms of your comments, I do think there are some outliers however.
The primary motto of his campaign was to make the caste pay, while I agree the workers have also paid, there have been more movements against said group that have ever been applied in Argentina before, I can remember some law he decreed to take down that State Jobs could be inherited from parents to their children, which was crazy to even think of, which makes me think that part of the promise is on-going rather than broken, if we apply the term without looking at where the caste is from (public state/private enterprise) then he does certainly miss the term on the non-governmental caste
About the economical effects it’s certain it put a hold to it’s imminent doom, but also worker salary increases and tax cuts are only beginning to happen, I remember poverty was first reported half throughout this year to be 57% and reports from the same entity have gone downhill since, while worker Salaries have only began increasing in the past two months, in his most recent speech given on the anniversary of his presidency, he did declare he would take off 90% of the taxes in the foreseeable future, which im inclined to believe given the record, perhaps it’s gonna be better once that takes off
I remember reading some news about that state app Propaganda you mention, it was more specifically aimed at an specific union, the leader of which had been trialed for threatening workers to strike under his force group or to be left without benefits. Under these circumstances I don’t believe it was used as Propaganda, since the message indicated that if you were being threatened, you could call the hotline to denounce it, again given the circumstances, Argentina had all of it’s available public media used for campaign for the Economy Minister back in the elections, so im certain Milei could have used way more if he wanted to make propaganda, this is tame in comparison, maybe it can be acceptable given the justice ruled the union leader guilty of those accusations
You are right he’s been ruling by decree, I do not know about those bribes for congressman, I haven’t seen a report of any kind of that either public or alleged but that’s worrying, in the other hand, the parties being bribed would be as guilty of not enforcing democracy in that case, but for Milei’s decree ruling, I believe it was a tool that was granted to him by the same congress, much like it happened with the previous President during the Pandemic, and statistically Milei has used it far less than him in the same period of time. I would believe his disrespect towards his opponents to be part of the “Cultural War” that he refers to where he has to defend his ideas until the results show up, and then he would let them speak for themselves, given the right I would believe he can tone it down in the future, but we’ll see
Hello there again.
I agree with your POVs. But, if you don’t mind, I’d like to clarify.
While I agree that he has done some movements in order to decrease state job abuse, he has done it in a way which left 150.000 families without a job. That a lot of people sadly. He also took down a law put in place by Macri’administration to prevent nepotism.
Most of the shock has been applied to the working class, the elders, etc. In fact, he lowered the Personal Goods tax, which made the upper class less taxable and re-issued the Gains Tax, with a formula that applied to workers who have “high” salaries.
The app thing, happened twice. First in the instance you mention. A phone line to denounce corruption, bribing and coercion from syndicates and unions was established, yes, but it had nothing to do with the app. The app just launched a message that said to users how the unions aren’t in favor of the working class people and such. If you are interested, I think I have screenshots of it.
On the economic front (which I admit it’s the best partbof his government given the results), yes, estabilization and stopping inflation were achieved, but as I said, through the suffering of the working class. Milei boast about salaries being better in dollars. What I believe he does not say is that not only most people receive the salarys in pesos, but most people didn’t have an inflation adjustement on its salary. So people’s power to consume decreased a lot.
This cultural war thingy he always goes on ramblin’ about it’s more of “ancap meets reality” where he is not so liberal but a social conservative. And those two things don’t go hand in hand at least when we talk about social stuff.
Also, while I understand his rethoric and character may derive from defending his (very unfounded and wacky, in my opinion) ideals, it is not acceptable to be ushering insults at everyone who thinks different than you.
In case of Congress, one senator was expulsed after being caught with an undeclared 200.000usd crossing from Argentina to Paraguay. And would’nt you know it, it’s the senator elected by Peronism who approved of the “Ley Bases” which allowed the vicepresident to add his vote (in order to break a tie) and pass the law.
Strange.
Well, I think I added enough context. I expect your answer!
Hope you have a great day and thank you for being so respectful and curious about what is happening. We could see things differently, but as long as we can talk about issues and be open about them, we’re on our way to make the world a better place, at least for us.
I know it sounds cheesy, but I believe that most of all this we talked about could have been prevented by people being vocal about their opinions and willing to debate more than just closing up and insulting others.
Salute, it’s been fun to talk about stuff and also i’m getting more information I missed so I thank you for that as well
I’m aware that Job states were practically severed, but I also think Milei has done it the legal way? I’ve seen discussions always pointing towards no-renewal of contracts rather than firing workers outright, if not shutting down entities which if it had followed the law, I think it’s best for Argentina’s people interests since doing that was also something he boasted about in his campaign, it’s bad for the workers of course but in any private environment, assuming the law is followed, would have the same results for any money-bleeding enterprise, again, as he promised to do so they (workers) probably saw it coming even and prepared accordingly
I wasn’t aware of the second usage of the state app, however what you mention about the first one’s message we would need the exact wording, given that wasn’t lying in Argentina’s case it seems and it doesn’t sound like a political attack or propaganda for other things than the hotline
About the economic front I think it’s the first time we collide, in all the discussions, news and analysis I have seen about Milei’s economic effects EVERYTHING I got from it indicated that Dollars were losing value against the Peso, and from Argentines getting paid in Dollars they stated they were becoming poorer, likewise there have been recent news about Brazilians going on vacation to Argentina to find that everything was extremely expensive in Dollars, comparing it to the last year where some said to have things practically gifted… so I am not sure if we’re talking about the same thing here, but all about it seems to compass that the Peso is increasing it’s value, while Salaries don’t increase that’s correct but the worth of them does, and Dollars lose value against the Peso
About his Social Conservativeness, yeah I have seen he has stances on that, I am not sure I about this exactly when, but I think he was asked about his Ideological stance in a recent interview from a British Podcaster (I can’t remember the name of right now but it was recent), and he replied by asking them if they wanted the Personal Answer or the Governmental Agenda one… point is I believe he has it straight to have his personal views out of the government agenda, but we’ll see
Wasn’t the Vice president a woman? but anyway, I guess that’s to be suspected yeah, whatever the case I hope it incentivizes to increase scrutiny bars, it’s very complicated to say it really had a tie to either field since cause and effect really benefit both sides
Milei is not making “the caste” pay. Milei is making workers pay. And Massa was not the president. He was the Superminister of Economy. And in Argentina, that is a big deal. But I’m not aware of him defying the Constitution in his tenure. Now, forgive me for believing the right, who aims to mantain it’s privileges every time they feel they are slightly threatened, can’t be trusted.
Except that… he’s already making the Caste pay?.. 2 out of his 3 Decrees so far have already cut A LOT of Political Priviledges and Money making schemes planted by the Peronists, and more are to come out of his words. Sure the workers are paying too i’ll give you that.
And yes, Massa was the President, of course not in an official way because that would be unconstitutional and Political Suicide, on the Most Peronist fashion it was all done under the rug. As soon as Massa assumed his charge the President Alberto Fernandez LITERALLY dissapeared from Public View AND Executively did NOTHING the rest of his mandate. Massa took his place both in Public Acts and on actually ordering the Country. There’s no way to make this shit up given how blatant it was
I don’t think you’re getting my point. The caste is composed of corrupt politicians, corporatioms that lobby the state, unnecesary assistants, etc. Congresspersons are not seeing their salarys reduced, nor are they having a more strict set of rules when it comes to assisting to sessions. Corporations are not paying anything. They are not being affected. Aristocracie has the same tax regime, there is no tax on bigger fortunes that enables some load of the measures to be lifted from the workers, and they’re getting the chance to buy state companys that are direct competition. There is also the elimination of price regulations and observation policy, so literally they can and will charge as much as they want (and yes, you could say that if you can’t afford it, don’t pay for it, but what about the food!?) On democracy and freedoms, freedoms are being reduced (Bulrich’s anti-picket protocol failed tremendously given that the streets were indeed cut off, althought not cut off by the manifestants). Right wing extremist are threatening leftist politicians, as you have seen with Espert. United Left Front parliamentary Natalia Morales was anonymously threatened with “not seeing sunlight ever again”.
Listen, I get the critics of peronism are valid. And I wholeheartedly agree that they have to be accountable of the wrongs they did and keep doing. What I do not and can not condone is the " on laws ground everything, out of them nothing" rethoric and then unconstitutionalism. If Peronism politicians do it is wrong. If leftist politicians do it is wrong. You can not fuck up the CN. If right wingers do it is also wrong. You can not say “well, peronist do it”. Because that is not the way it works when you said all the heavy things you said when in campaign.
And then we could go and analyze why most of what Milei said on campaign was wrong. We cpuld start iith his bashing of aocialism and communism when, he may not know what the hell those are, because he does not appear to know how they work or the definitions, or he knows but finds amusing to spew lies. We could go on and prove markets are not good at autoregulation, we could prove that economic growth does not equal life quality, climate change is obviously real and denying it should be penalized in my opinion because scientific consensus on the matter is hella strong, etc.
We can argue for hours about all of this things. And again, the caste should pay. But they’re not. Because those who made themselves rich on the workers labor, sweat and tears are not having any privileges being taken away. They are just getting more chances at exploiting.
Well, this is gonna be odd
Hello there, I actually kept your comment’s notification on my inbox this whole time, since you sounded reasonable and had an in depht-view of the events that ocurred at the time
Given the current state now, a whole year later of impact, if it’s not much trouble can I ask for opinions or thoughts if you have kept watch?
Hi! Ok. There is a lot to unpack. First of all, thank you for your kind wprds. And for being so interested in the topic.
A year of Milei can be sintetized with “he made impressive economic feats… which were paid for by the working class”.
It is true, inflation is down, prices are more stable, dollars are stable also. He did a lot. I would be praising him if not for the fact that the working class got to, again, pay the bills of the capitalists.
In his campaign, he promised that the " caste", a vague invented group composed of mostly politicians and businessmans, would pay the price of the exonomic shock and also would be on the receiving end of the harsher policoes, if you will. That, however, as many of us in the left knew, wasn’t gonna happen. And it did not. So, the economics part was real, but he lied on the basic premise of his campaign winning argument.
Then, we have the social dimension of his government. And here is worse: he rules by decree instead of by consensus, mischaracterises every politocian or entity that disagrees with him as corrupt, bad,lobbied, communist, socialist, leftist, etc. 1 in 3 protests are repressed by police ilegally (the methods are illegal, properly speaking). He made it easier for his followers to be more violent, regularly demosntrates disdain for LGBT folks, leftists, and so on.
He does not exhibit any apparent understanding of how democracies are supposed to work, with his party bribing congressmans for votes, even when the laws thay propose are unconstitutional. They are also using state mobile apps as propaganda for the government.
It’s 4am here, so sorry if I sound a little all over the place. This is my view. I’d advise to research more on this, via different nws source taht have different editorial lines, as to avoid getting only one point of view of the topics I talked about.
All in all, economic fixes are worth nothing, in my opinion, if the working class gets destroyed and the rich get more and more rich.
Hello there, thanks for getting back, I have also kept some watch through different mediums and I can agree on most terms of your comments, I do think there are some outliers however.
The primary motto of his campaign was to make the caste pay, while I agree the workers have also paid, there have been more movements against said group that have ever been applied in Argentina before, I can remember some law he decreed to take down that State Jobs could be inherited from parents to their children, which was crazy to even think of, which makes me think that part of the promise is on-going rather than broken, if we apply the term without looking at where the caste is from (public state/private enterprise) then he does certainly miss the term on the non-governmental caste
About the economical effects it’s certain it put a hold to it’s imminent doom, but also worker salary increases and tax cuts are only beginning to happen, I remember poverty was first reported half throughout this year to be 57% and reports from the same entity have gone downhill since, while worker Salaries have only began increasing in the past two months, in his most recent speech given on the anniversary of his presidency, he did declare he would take off 90% of the taxes in the foreseeable future, which im inclined to believe given the record, perhaps it’s gonna be better once that takes off
I remember reading some news about that state app Propaganda you mention, it was more specifically aimed at an specific union, the leader of which had been trialed for threatening workers to strike under his force group or to be left without benefits. Under these circumstances I don’t believe it was used as Propaganda, since the message indicated that if you were being threatened, you could call the hotline to denounce it, again given the circumstances, Argentina had all of it’s available public media used for campaign for the Economy Minister back in the elections, so im certain Milei could have used way more if he wanted to make propaganda, this is tame in comparison, maybe it can be acceptable given the justice ruled the union leader guilty of those accusations
You are right he’s been ruling by decree, I do not know about those bribes for congressman, I haven’t seen a report of any kind of that either public or alleged but that’s worrying, in the other hand, the parties being bribed would be as guilty of not enforcing democracy in that case, but for Milei’s decree ruling, I believe it was a tool that was granted to him by the same congress, much like it happened with the previous President during the Pandemic, and statistically Milei has used it far less than him in the same period of time. I would believe his disrespect towards his opponents to be part of the “Cultural War” that he refers to where he has to defend his ideas until the results show up, and then he would let them speak for themselves, given the right I would believe he can tone it down in the future, but we’ll see
Hello there again. I agree with your POVs. But, if you don’t mind, I’d like to clarify. While I agree that he has done some movements in order to decrease state job abuse, he has done it in a way which left 150.000 families without a job. That a lot of people sadly. He also took down a law put in place by Macri’administration to prevent nepotism. Most of the shock has been applied to the working class, the elders, etc. In fact, he lowered the Personal Goods tax, which made the upper class less taxable and re-issued the Gains Tax, with a formula that applied to workers who have “high” salaries.
The app thing, happened twice. First in the instance you mention. A phone line to denounce corruption, bribing and coercion from syndicates and unions was established, yes, but it had nothing to do with the app. The app just launched a message that said to users how the unions aren’t in favor of the working class people and such. If you are interested, I think I have screenshots of it.
On the economic front (which I admit it’s the best partbof his government given the results), yes, estabilization and stopping inflation were achieved, but as I said, through the suffering of the working class. Milei boast about salaries being better in dollars. What I believe he does not say is that not only most people receive the salarys in pesos, but most people didn’t have an inflation adjustement on its salary. So people’s power to consume decreased a lot.
This cultural war thingy he always goes on ramblin’ about it’s more of “ancap meets reality” where he is not so liberal but a social conservative. And those two things don’t go hand in hand at least when we talk about social stuff. Also, while I understand his rethoric and character may derive from defending his (very unfounded and wacky, in my opinion) ideals, it is not acceptable to be ushering insults at everyone who thinks different than you.
In case of Congress, one senator was expulsed after being caught with an undeclared 200.000usd crossing from Argentina to Paraguay. And would’nt you know it, it’s the senator elected by Peronism who approved of the “Ley Bases” which allowed the vicepresident to add his vote (in order to break a tie) and pass the law. Strange.
Well, I think I added enough context. I expect your answer! Hope you have a great day and thank you for being so respectful and curious about what is happening. We could see things differently, but as long as we can talk about issues and be open about them, we’re on our way to make the world a better place, at least for us. I know it sounds cheesy, but I believe that most of all this we talked about could have been prevented by people being vocal about their opinions and willing to debate more than just closing up and insulting others.
Salute, it’s been fun to talk about stuff and also i’m getting more information I missed so I thank you for that as well
I’m aware that Job states were practically severed, but I also think Milei has done it the legal way? I’ve seen discussions always pointing towards no-renewal of contracts rather than firing workers outright, if not shutting down entities which if it had followed the law, I think it’s best for Argentina’s people interests since doing that was also something he boasted about in his campaign, it’s bad for the workers of course but in any private environment, assuming the law is followed, would have the same results for any money-bleeding enterprise, again, as he promised to do so they (workers) probably saw it coming even and prepared accordingly
I wasn’t aware of the second usage of the state app, however what you mention about the first one’s message we would need the exact wording, given that wasn’t lying in Argentina’s case it seems and it doesn’t sound like a political attack or propaganda for other things than the hotline
About the economic front I think it’s the first time we collide, in all the discussions, news and analysis I have seen about Milei’s economic effects EVERYTHING I got from it indicated that Dollars were losing value against the Peso, and from Argentines getting paid in Dollars they stated they were becoming poorer, likewise there have been recent news about Brazilians going on vacation to Argentina to find that everything was extremely expensive in Dollars, comparing it to the last year where some said to have things practically gifted… so I am not sure if we’re talking about the same thing here, but all about it seems to compass that the Peso is increasing it’s value, while Salaries don’t increase that’s correct but the worth of them does, and Dollars lose value against the Peso
About his Social Conservativeness, yeah I have seen he has stances on that, I am not sure I about this exactly when, but I think he was asked about his Ideological stance in a recent interview from a British Podcaster (I can’t remember the name of right now but it was recent), and he replied by asking them if they wanted the Personal Answer or the Governmental Agenda one… point is I believe he has it straight to have his personal views out of the government agenda, but we’ll see
Wasn’t the Vice president a woman? but anyway, I guess that’s to be suspected yeah, whatever the case I hope it incentivizes to increase scrutiny bars, it’s very complicated to say it really had a tie to either field since cause and effect really benefit both sides