But that doesn’t mean Israels solution of “kill them all and let god sort them out” is remotely acceptable.
I completely agree with you there. The whole situation is fucked up, and neither side is making any effort to take the high road. I get that the hamas doesn’t have that luxury, being underdog rebels and all, but it’s not like their goals are benevolent either. One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of Israel, and the Jews. Israel, being the well armed and well funded nation, should be taking steps to respond in an ethical manner, but they’re sinking to the goals of their enemies. Or maybe those were always their goals anyways, and the hamas attack gave them an excuse. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israel Hamas relations. I just don’t think that Biden can be judged too harshly for not immediately yanking decades of history with Israel. For one, if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will likely cease to exist shortly afterwards. Anyways, I’m going way off the original topic, so I apologize for that. The overall point I’m trying to make is that I agree with you, but acknowledge the complexity of the situation.
“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”
And can you blame them for conflating zionists with jews, when the ethnostate that has been slaughtering and oppressing the Palestinian people has been trying to do precisely that for the past 70+ years, and is backed by the world superpower as they try to do so?
Hamas’s tactics aren’t much different from the Viet Cong’s; attacking villages, taking hostages, and using tunnels and guerilla warfare. These are simply the most effective methods of driving out an occupying entity, and wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place.
Okay, so they want to destroy Israel, and Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No? If their only issue was opposition to Israeli occupation, then it would be a lot easier to sympathize with them, but they are a Muslim extremist organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
Since its creation in December 1987, Hamas has invoked militant interpretations of Islam to spearhead a Sunni extremist movement committed to destroying Israel.
That comes from this website , but can be found just about anywhere. Even your own document lists this opposition:
The establishment of “Israel” is entirely illegal and contravenes the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people and goes against their will and the will of the Ummah
To be clear, I think the human rights violations perpetrated in Gaza are atrocious. The bombing of civilians and civilian targets is awful. But Hamas isn’t some benevolent organization that is taking a beating through no fault of their own, and they would perpetrate the same or worse against Israel if they had the power to do so.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism. Hamas are religious extremists, with a violent perspective towards outsiders, and an abusive relationship with women. Ultimately what I’m saying is that what Israel is doing is wrong. Full-stop. Also, the goals of Hamas are wrong. Full-stop. That said, Biden’s involvement is circumstantial, since he inherited a government with a history of aid to Israel, and has merely not revoked it. I support Bernie’s proposition yesterday, to require the US Secretary of State to report on Israel’s humanitarian violations or withhold their aid. Unfortunately the Senate voted overwhelmingly against that measure, 71-11, if my memory serves correctly.
Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No?
First, see my previous comment regarding the current Hamas charter. And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right? And that’s literally what the israeli government wants people to do.
organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
Of course. “Israel” itself is a western colony in Palestine, and colonies have no right to exist. Its formation used common british colonization tactics [III], with companies literally named “Colonization Commission”, “Jewish Colonial Trust” and the like.
Theodor Herzl, founder of the colonial ideology he called “zionism”, was himself also just a racist colonizer by his own admission, and saw it as bringing ‘civilization’ to ‘barbarians’ as the rest of Europe did when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:
“We should there form a portion of a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism. We should as a neutral State remain in contact with all Europe, which would have to guarantee our existence.” Source [II]
That’s exactly what’s happening right now, all for US and European capitalist interests in the region, no matter how many people die in the process.
Zionist leaders fully acknowledged that Palestinian demographics were a core issue to the Zionist project, that the Palestinian population had to be removed at any cost, which is exactly what Israel did. What lead to the Palestinians being defenseless in this situation? Colonial Britain abetted the formation of heavily armed Zionist militias with soldiers numbering in the tens of thousands. The arms of Britain’s colonial military presence were inherited by the Zionist forces that it supported. All this while Britain summarily excecuted any Palestinian found in possession of a firearm.
This is not to mention the enthusiastic support of european antisemites for the Zionist project, or its strict early opposition by antifascist jews.
The idea that Israel has any right to exist on Palestinian land is a lie that has been so heavily proliferated, it has to be debunked when it should be paid no consideration at all.
From the PFLP’s 1969 Strategy For the Liberation of Palestine (very good read):
The Palestinian liberation movement is not a racial movement with aggressive intentions against the Jews. It is not directed against the Jews. Its object is to destroy the state of Israel as a military, political and economic establishment that rests on aggression, expansion and organic connection with imperialist interests in our homeland. It is against Zionism as an aggressive racial movement connected with imperialism, which has exploited the sufferings of the Jews as a stepping stone for the promotion of its interests and the interests of imperialism in this part of the world that possesses rich resources (the middle east and its oil) and provides a bridgehead into the countries of Africa and Asia.
.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism.
Because this is a lefty platform. We don’t like religions, but we’re not about to tell people that have been oppressed and killed for generations to not use it as an organizing and political tool to fight against colonialism and imperialism.
I completely agree with you there. The whole situation is fucked up, and neither side is making any effort to take the high road. I get that the hamas doesn’t have that luxury, being underdog rebels and all, but it’s not like their goals are benevolent either. One of their stated goals is the complete destruction of Israel, and the Jews. Israel, being the well armed and well funded nation, should be taking steps to respond in an ethical manner, but they’re sinking to the goals of their enemies. Or maybe those were always their goals anyways, and the hamas attack gave them an excuse. I don’t pretend to be an expert on Israel Hamas relations. I just don’t think that Biden can be judged too harshly for not immediately yanking decades of history with Israel. For one, if the US stops supporting Israel, Israel will likely cease to exist shortly afterwards. Anyways, I’m going way off the original topic, so I apologize for that. The overall point I’m trying to make is that I agree with you, but acknowledge the complexity of the situation.
False under their 2017 Hamas charter:
“16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.”
And can you blame them for conflating zionists with jews, when the ethnostate that has been slaughtering and oppressing the Palestinian people has been trying to do precisely that for the past 70+ years, and is backed by the world superpower as they try to do so?
Hamas’s tactics aren’t much different from the Viet Cong’s; attacking villages, taking hostages, and using tunnels and guerilla warfare. These are simply the most effective methods of driving out an occupying entity, and wouldn’t be necessary if the colony wasn’t there in the first place.
They have also done a far better job at avoiding killing children than Israel. The final death toll from the Oct 7 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli “civilians” (mostly unarmed IDF conscripts), 373 armed IDF members, 71 foreigners and 36 children. While Israel has killed 22,000 Palestinians, 2/3 of whom are women and children.
Okay, so they want to destroy Israel, and Zionists, which they conflate with the Jewish people. It’s kind of splitting hairs. No? If their only issue was opposition to Israeli occupation, then it would be a lot easier to sympathize with them, but they are a Muslim extremist organization that wants the destruction of Israel.
That comes from this website , but can be found just about anywhere. Even your own document lists this opposition:
To be clear, I think the human rights violations perpetrated in Gaza are atrocious. The bombing of civilians and civilian targets is awful. But Hamas isn’t some benevolent organization that is taking a beating through no fault of their own, and they would perpetrate the same or worse against Israel if they had the power to do so.
It’s surprising to me that there’s so much pandering to Hamas on this website, from a group of people who are generally vehemently opposed to religion, and especially religious extremism. Hamas are religious extremists, with a violent perspective towards outsiders, and an abusive relationship with women. Ultimately what I’m saying is that what Israel is doing is wrong. Full-stop. Also, the goals of Hamas are wrong. Full-stop. That said, Biden’s involvement is circumstantial, since he inherited a government with a history of aid to Israel, and has merely not revoked it. I support Bernie’s proposition yesterday, to require the US Secretary of State to report on Israel’s humanitarian violations or withhold their aid. Unfortunately the Senate voted overwhelmingly against that measure, 71-11, if my memory serves correctly.
First, see my previous comment regarding the current Hamas charter. And second, you do realize saying that separating Jewish people from zionists is like “splitting hairs” is anti-semetic right? And that’s literally what the israeli government wants people to do.
Of course. “Israel” itself is a western colony in Palestine, and colonies have no right to exist. Its formation used common british colonization tactics [III], with companies literally named “Colonization Commission”, “Jewish Colonial Trust” and the like.
Theodor Herzl, founder of the colonial ideology he called “zionism”, was himself also just a racist colonizer by his own admission, and saw it as bringing ‘civilization’ to ‘barbarians’ as the rest of Europe did when they were colonizing and enslaving Africa and Asia:
That’s exactly what’s happening right now, all for US and European capitalist interests in the region, no matter how many people die in the process.
Zionist leaders fully acknowledged that Palestinian demographics were a core issue to the Zionist project, that the Palestinian population had to be removed at any cost, which is exactly what Israel did. What lead to the Palestinians being defenseless in this situation? Colonial Britain abetted the formation of heavily armed Zionist militias with soldiers numbering in the tens of thousands. The arms of Britain’s colonial military presence were inherited by the Zionist forces that it supported. All this while Britain summarily excecuted any Palestinian found in possession of a firearm.
This is not to mention the enthusiastic support of european antisemites for the Zionist project, or its strict early opposition by antifascist jews.
The idea that Israel has any right to exist on Palestinian land is a lie that has been so heavily proliferated, it has to be debunked when it should be paid no consideration at all.
From the PFLP’s 1969 Strategy For the Liberation of Palestine (very good read):
.
Because this is a lefty platform. We don’t like religions, but we’re not about to tell people that have been oppressed and killed for generations to not use it as an organizing and political tool to fight against colonialism and imperialism.
The Iranian Islamic revolution of 1979 overthrowing the US-backed monarchy was also deeply religious, and resulted in a drastically improved quality of life for everyone in the nation. Total literacy in Iran has also from 47% to 93% and female literacy has gone from 37% to 87%.