Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has canceled an Israeli delegation’s trip to Washington after the U.S. refused to veto a U.N. Security Council reso...
The US has been pressuring Israel to spare civilians since before they went into Gaza. That’s just reality. They haven’t followed the disastrous strategies that critics have demanded for exactly the reasons I explained.
Netanyaho is a far right maniac who’s popularity was based entirely on national security and who was facing multiple criminal allegations. There was no way that he wasn’t going to go hard into Gaza. The US could have pulled all aid and weapons deals on day one, and it wouldn’t have changed a damn thing - except that Israel would now be a Russian satellite state.
Ramping pressure over time is/was the best available strategy. That doesn’t mean I think the US did everything right. That doesn’t mean that Biden’s personal positions on Israel aren’t deeply troubling.
I’ll say it again. You got exactly the resolution you were demanding, and exactly the result that people like me said you would get from it. Take the L and learn something.
You might be absolutely right. All I’m talking about is maximizing the leverage the US has. That’s no guarantee that it’s enough leverage to control Netanyaho.
Please show me where anyone has “demanded” a resolution that will in no way be enforced, as the totality of action needed to stop Israel?
Netanyahu is thumbing his nose at everyone because he knows no one is going to actually do anything about his genocide. Stopping weapons isn’t about stopping the genocide, it’s about not actively contributing to it.
Actively stopping it would probably require a hell of a lot more than cutting off our weapon shipments, and no one but Netanyahu (yourself included) can quantify what that actual line would be. Maybe it would require international sanctions. Maybe it would require military intervention. Neither of those is actually on the table though, realistically, so not being active contributors is probably the best we can do right now.
We’re I at my PC I might dump a boatload of links to lemmy comments but, since I’m not, I’ll just tell you to do your own search. It’s incredibly prevalent in the more “tankie” subs, but they show up pretty much everywhere the subject is discussed.
The frustrating thing is that there are two groups doing it. There are right wing trolls pretending they care but actually just taking advantage to damage Democrats, but there are also good people arguing for the best of causes, but not understanding the dynamics at play.
When someone says that an abstention from a vote is “kissing Netanyaho’s ass”, it seems pretty apparent that the consider a lack of a yes vote as a moral failing.
How did you get from a vote on a particular wording of a particular resolution to “not supporting Israel”? Where did I say that anyone said the revolution would “fix everything”?
How did you get from a vote on a particular wording of a particular resolution to “not supporting Israel”?
The US not vetoing the resolution is being actively touted by Israel as the US not supporting them. Obviously it’s not actually true, but in foreign policy that kind of rhetoric “reversal” is a huge deal (and Netanyahu is playing it up to try to pressure Biden into backing down).
Where did I say that anyone said the revolution would “fix everything”?
Obviously “everything” is hyperbole, but your first comment in this thread said
You got your resolution, and now the situation is worse.
The situation is not worse, it is immeasurably better. Netanyahu’s anger is not just about a hit to his pride or something, it’s genuine rage at seeing the influence campaigns they run via groups like AIPAC, Psy-Group, and Inspiration fail to cajole the US populace into uncritical support, like they previously enjoyed from older generations. And he’s using it strategically to try to signal to people that it won’t work, just like Putin does about sanctions, and military aid to Ukraine, both of which actually have a huge impact.
Your assertion (and Biden’s belief) that the US’s rhetorical support of Israel gave them leverage over their actions, has been proven wrong, as many of us knew it would be. Netanyahu is an extremist, and just like no one expects ISIS to start being normal dudes if their friends just tell them honestly as friends that they need to cool it bro, neither will Netanyahu.
With them, you need tangible leverage to move the needle. Money and weapons are leverage. Threat of force is leverage. Threat of sanctions is leverage. (Assuming you actually will follow through, of course.) That’s why Israel has actively lobbied for anti-BDS laws in the US.
What would actually have maybe gotten some reaction from Israel right off the bat? A forceful backing of the resolutions condemning Israel’s actions, and a threat to cut off weapons and military support. But instead Biden took so long to do anything, all while lobbying internally for more weapons for Israel, that Netanyahu can clearly see that he has the upper hand. It took months and months, and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians, for Biden to bring himself to have us abstain from vetoing a resolution. If that level of self-imposed inaction isn’t the height of fecklessness, I don’t know what is, though I also think Biden himself is just plain supportive of Israel in a way that most of the US is not.
Now, the resolution is mostly an incarnation of the US populace’s diminishing support for a genocidal regime, and that is immeasurably valuable (even if it won’t move the needle on Israel’s actions because of how long it took to come, and the lack of any follow-up from Biden).
Are you arguing that the US is protecting Palestinians?
The US has been pressuring Israel to spare civilians since before they went into Gaza. That’s just reality. They haven’t followed the disastrous strategies that critics have demanded for exactly the reasons I explained.
Netanyaho is a far right maniac who’s popularity was based entirely on national security and who was facing multiple criminal allegations. There was no way that he wasn’t going to go hard into Gaza. The US could have pulled all aid and weapons deals on day one, and it wouldn’t have changed a damn thing - except that Israel would now be a Russian satellite state.
Ramping pressure over time is/was the best available strategy. That doesn’t mean I think the US did everything right. That doesn’t mean that Biden’s personal positions on Israel aren’t deeply troubling.
I’ll say it again. You got exactly the resolution you were demanding, and exactly the result that people like me said you would get from it. Take the L and learn something.
So, you are arguing that the US has been protecting Palestinians throughout.
Words fail me.
I don’t doubt it.
I don’t see it working. Pressure only matters when there’s real leverage at play, otherwise you get the current mess.
You might be absolutely right. All I’m talking about is maximizing the leverage the US has. That’s no guarantee that it’s enough leverage to control Netanyaho.
Please show me where anyone has “demanded” a resolution that will in no way be enforced, as the totality of action needed to stop Israel?
Netanyahu is thumbing his nose at everyone because he knows no one is going to actually do anything about his genocide. Stopping weapons isn’t about stopping the genocide, it’s about not actively contributing to it.
Actively stopping it would probably require a hell of a lot more than cutting off our weapon shipments, and no one but Netanyahu (yourself included) can quantify what that actual line would be. Maybe it would require international sanctions. Maybe it would require military intervention. Neither of those is actually on the table though, realistically, so not being active contributors is probably the best we can do right now.
We’re I at my PC I might dump a boatload of links to lemmy comments but, since I’m not, I’ll just tell you to do your own search. It’s incredibly prevalent in the more “tankie” subs, but they show up pretty much everywhere the subject is discussed.
The frustrating thing is that there are two groups doing it. There are right wing trolls pretending they care but actually just taking advantage to damage Democrats, but there are also good people arguing for the best of causes, but not understanding the dynamics at play.
But so, not actually the person you were responding to when you said “You got [what] you were demanding”?
When someone says that an abstention from a vote is “kissing Netanyaho’s ass”, it seems pretty apparent that the consider a lack of a yes vote as a moral failing.
Yes, but how did you get from “not opposing Israel is a moral failing” to “if we oppose Israel in a UN resolution, that will fix everything”?
How did you get from a vote on a particular wording of a particular resolution to “not supporting Israel”? Where did I say that anyone said the revolution would “fix everything”?
The US not vetoing the resolution is being actively touted by Israel as the US not supporting them. Obviously it’s not actually true, but in foreign policy that kind of rhetoric “reversal” is a huge deal (and Netanyahu is playing it up to try to pressure Biden into backing down).
Obviously “everything” is hyperbole, but your first comment in this thread said
The situation is not worse, it is immeasurably better. Netanyahu’s anger is not just about a hit to his pride or something, it’s genuine rage at seeing the influence campaigns they run via groups like AIPAC, Psy-Group, and Inspiration fail to cajole the US populace into uncritical support, like they previously enjoyed from older generations. And he’s using it strategically to try to signal to people that it won’t work, just like Putin does about sanctions, and military aid to Ukraine, both of which actually have a huge impact.
Your assertion (and Biden’s belief) that the US’s rhetorical support of Israel gave them leverage over their actions, has been proven wrong, as many of us knew it would be. Netanyahu is an extremist, and just like no one expects ISIS to start being normal dudes if their friends just tell them honestly as friends that they need to cool it bro, neither will Netanyahu.
With them, you need tangible leverage to move the needle. Money and weapons are leverage. Threat of force is leverage. Threat of sanctions is leverage. (Assuming you actually will follow through, of course.) That’s why Israel has actively lobbied for anti-BDS laws in the US.
What would actually have maybe gotten some reaction from Israel right off the bat? A forceful backing of the resolutions condemning Israel’s actions, and a threat to cut off weapons and military support. But instead Biden took so long to do anything, all while lobbying internally for more weapons for Israel, that Netanyahu can clearly see that he has the upper hand. It took months and months, and tens of thousands of dead Palestinians, for Biden to bring himself to have us abstain from vetoing a resolution. If that level of self-imposed inaction isn’t the height of fecklessness, I don’t know what is, though I also think Biden himself is just plain supportive of Israel in a way that most of the US is not.
Now, the resolution is mostly an incarnation of the US populace’s diminishing support for a genocidal regime, and that is immeasurably valuable (even if it won’t move the needle on Israel’s actions because of how long it took to come, and the lack of any follow-up from Biden).