• Greg Clarke@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    9
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    13 hours ago

    the argument that Ukrainian state cherishes the lives of its military aged men is a bit silly

    Don’t strawman, my argument is

    Ukrainian government values it’s manpower more than Russian government

    Do you have any evidence or arguments to counter my initial claim?

    • BMTea@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      9 hours ago

      This is how it went:

      You said Ukraine values its manpower more than Russia.

      I agreed with you, and added that it is because they have less manpower.

      You then brought up some democracy index like that was relevant to the topic.

      I inferred from this that you were explaining that you believe they value manpower more due to their hybrid regime versus Russia’s authoritarian regime and disagreed with you on that cause.

      You called my inferrence a “strawman” and then asked for evidence against your first claim, that I agreed with.

      Please read more carefully.

      • Greg Clarke@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        6 hours ago

        I read your responses carefully. This is you apparently agreeing with me and adding that it’s because they have less manpower.

        Only because they have fewer men. Have you seen the draft gangpress measures? People are being sent to be cannon fodder, under-equipped and underprepared.

        I bought up the democracy index to illustrate that the Ukrainian government requires support from the Ukrainian population more than the Russian government requires support from their population. The Ukrainian government does not value their manpower just because they have less of it, the Ukrainian government is also more accountable to their population (as they are not an authoritarian regime). That is why I brought up the democracy index as it is a quantifiable measure of government accountability to their populations.

        • BMTea@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          4 hours ago

          And I was disagreeing with you on that point, so I don’t know why you challenged me on the very first point you made, which I agreed with.

          I don’t agree that the democracy index is really a quantifiable measure as it has several arbitrary criteria, but you could just assert that Ukraine is more democratic than Russia anyways, which is a matter of common sense.

          Your argument that “democratic accountability” has something to do with it doesn’t make any sense and doesn’t follow. Ukraine has a draft. Drafts are drafts, there is no “democratic” objection to being drafted for war. Russia also drafts men as needed and the process looks quite similar sometimes, but in Ukraine it has become a severe social phenomenon.

          • Greg Clarke@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            3 hours ago

            Do you agree that the Ukrainian government is more accountable to it’s population than the Russian government?

            • BMTea@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 hour ago

              I’d prefer you respond to my arguments instead of rehashing what’s already been discussed. Or we could just stop here.

              • Greg Clarke@lemmy.ca
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                43 minutes ago

                I’m attempting to align so that we can move our discussion forward. I’m just going to assume that you agree with the following statement.

                The Ukrainian government is more accountable to it’s population than the Russian government.

                Both democracies and authoritarian regimes have drafts. The difference is that democracies can not continue an unpopular draft because the government will be voted out.

                The more accountable a government is to their population, the less that government can afford to enact unpopular policies.

                You seem hung up on the fact that Ukraine has a draft. What’s actually important is, does Ukraine have a draft that is supported by the population? If lots of drafted individuals become casualties then the Ukrainian government risks losing the support of the population and being replaced.

                This is less of an issue for authoritarian regimes. That is my point and that is a major reason the Ukrainian government values it’s manpower more than the Russian government, there are larger consequences for casualties.