Ok but the weapons are still flowing. It’s all theater until that changes.

He literally moved the us embassy to Jerusalem. He’s definitely not pro hamas

So instead of voting for a 3rd party that’s actually anti-zionist, ur gonna vote for one of the only people who could make the situation worse than genocide Joe?

I mean ideally you could work towards a single secular state, that way you don’t have Hamas in power and Israel doesn’t get to commit genocide.

Unfortunately the power here is held by Israel, and there’s a 0 percent chance they would willingly give up their ethnostate and live in peace with Palestinians unless they were forced to.

Here’s Amnesty international’s report, theres a 280 page report that outlines most of the atrocities that constitute apartheid in it. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

Here’s a UN article regarding the settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is effectively a slow invasion and ethnic cleansing. https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/10/1129942

It’s not as horrible as the way hamas uses its civilians to act as both living shield and terrorist recruits. Children are being told they need to kill jews from the tv, and parents tell them they would be proud of they become “heroes” that way.

Ok lets look at this claim. The main radicalizing factor isn’t TV, it’s bombs killing children’s families, and those bombs are a million times more effective at turning people into terrorists than antisemetic TV shows. Hamas only has ~25,000 soldiers though, while Israel propagandizes its civilians and forces most of them into either jail or military service when they reach military age. They also put military infrastructure in crowded civilian areas just like Hamas. If you’re worried about turning people into terrorists and using them as human shields, this is obviously worse right?

Also, I notice you brought up Russia earlier. Ukraine set up bases in civilian areas, including schools. But we still consider Russia the bad guys, for obvious reasons.

Especially when they have a record, right? Those other conflicts you mentioned were ended when they recognized and supported the oppressed parties, if I get it right. But at the same time they have no morals, sure.

Sure man, I don’t really think its worth talking about it. We might decide to sacrifice profits for a moral high ground, who knows. That would be great, but I personally don’t think its likely.

I don’t think you understand that odds of that happening.

No I’m aware that it’s very very very low.

Because these people never showed that they even cared for their own population, and negotiations would mean they would need to actually work towards establishing a proper state and take care of themselves.

They literally did. How do you think Hamas got elected over Fatah. It wasn’t because Palestinians love terrorism or any racist shit like that. Straight from the wikipedia page:

In the 1990s, some 85% of its budget was allocated to the provision of social services. Hamas has been called perhaps the most significant social services actor in Palestine. By 2000, Hamas or its affiliated charities ran roughly 40% of the social institutions in the West Bank and Gaza and, with other Islamic charities, by 2005, was supporting 120,000 individuals with monthly financial support in Gaza. Part of the appeal of these institutions is that they fill a vacuum in the administration by the PLO of the Palestinian territories, which had failed to cater to the demand for jobs and broad social services, and is widely viewed as corrupt. As late as 2005, the budget of Hamas, drawing on global charity contributions, was mostly tied up in covering running expenses for its social programmes, which extended from the supply of housing, food and water for the needy to more general functions such as financial aid, medical assistance, educational development and religious instruction.

And how long do you mean by generations, cause Hamas has only resorted to terrorism against civilians from the 1990s. Hamas literally has in its charter that it is willing to accept a 2 state solution on the 1967 lines, so yes it would absolutely be willing to negotiate.

they shouldn’t expect to receive the same generous concessions that were offered previously

Cmon dude. The deals offered were not generous. They were bullshit and insulting. Israel has left them with only one option, violence. It really fucking sucks, and innocent people are dying, but it’s because Israel doesn’t want peace, not because the Palestinians don’t.

don’t lie to me and act like those actions are why a two-state solution isn’t working.

Do you understand how it makes a 2 state solution physically impossible? That’s Israel’s doing. You can’t have a solution that displaces 700,000 people, so you can’t have a 2 state solution.

Israel has never offered a solution that gave Palestinians a right to return. The people displaced in the Nakba and later, and the people born into refugee camps, deserve this right. Israel’s proposed peace solutions are all garbage and unfair, and it is insane to expect Palestinians to be ok with making huge compromises regarding land that they were cleansed from.

they wanted one state, sans Jews.

Hamas? Sure. But don’t pretend that the various secular organizations wanted to ethnically cleanse jews from the area, they didn’t. They supported a secular state solution.

I guess all Palestinians, since you’re lumping them together?

There’s a difference between saying that all Palestinians are Hamas and saying that the only option Palestinians have left is violence.

Resorting to violence when democracy fails is different to outright rejecting democracy and going straight for violence, which is what Hamas and other Islamist terror groups in that region do.

Can you explain how you expect them to negotiate with Israel peacefully when Israel has shown that it is not interested in peace by continuing to build illegal settlements in the west bank, effectively killing a two state solution? They can’t peacefully protest, they’d get shot. They can’t vote Israel out, they aren’t citizens of Israel. The only options left for them is violence. And out of the organizations there, the secular ones like the PFLP and DFLP aren’t as powerful as they used to be so Hamas is the only viable one left.

If there was a way for Palestinians to achieve liberation peacefully, that would be awesome for everyone, but I’m struggling to see how that’s possible.

Any group that rejects political and democratic solutions to its problems in favor of violence is unjustified.

Nice, we should have just voted the Nazis out then. Algeria and Vietnam should have just voted out the colonial powers. The ANC should have just voted out South African apartheid. Violence is a last resort sure, and Palestinians (along with those other groups) are at a point where they have to turn to it.

Yeah. Glad you noticed. Would you say the Viet Cong and the ANC weren’t justified?

You really can compare that to (and justify) what happend at October 7? At this point I’ll kindly ask you to agree that you are applying different judgement systems for 2 nations. You allow palestinians be bloody monsters but you require that israeli would not touch them no matter what happens.

No, that isn’t the only justification. You are ignoring the apartheid and settler colonialism and focusing on one or two other things I said.

Maybe we should ask hamas to provide proofs that they fire missiles at military objects in Israel?

I mean any rocket at tel aviv could be aimed at a military target, the IDF headquarters is in the middle of a densely populated area. But yeah, a lot of those rockets are simply to hurt anyone they can. Again, do I need to point you at the people killed by the various other organizations that used terror to fight for freedom? It’s horrible, yes, but the way to stop it is by giving people their freedom.

There is a contradiction when people first expect the western world to take the side of Gaza in order to save lifes, and then say that the same western world really sell defense equipment for profit only and not to save lifes.

I can expect someone to do the right thing, but also recognize that they have no morals and so they won’t do it.

Worth it to get rid of Israel? Or worth it to leave a terrorist organization in power of 2 million people alone?

I don’t think you understand what it would be like if the Palestinians won. Even in the best case scenario for the Palestinians, it wouldn’t be Hamas completely taking over Israel. That is definitely physically impossible. It would be both groups come together and negotiate, and either Israel turns into a secular state and swallows the west bank and gaza, or a new secular state is formed that encompasses the whole area. That’s what “from the river to the sea” means.

If we do we’ll surely find that many other people lived there, not just these 2. But some people still want to judge a land by it’s past when it benefits them.

Interestingly, Palestinians (muslims christians and jews) can trace their ancestry to the Caananites mostly, which in turn decended partially from Neolithic farmers that lived in the area and partially from immigration. So it really has just been 1 people genetically and the differences are mostly just made up. If we look to today, their land is still being stolen. Israel continues to build illegal settlements in the west bank. Palestinians are denied a right to return, while people from New York are allowed to kick a Palestinian out of their home and take it. The Nakba was 75 years ago, people who were kicked out as children are still alive.

Again you didn’t explain how exactly this affects their lives to an extent that they see violence as the only option.

Again, I’ll point you to human rights organizations describing the current conditions as Apartheid. They see violence as the only option, since when they peacefully protest (eg. great march of return), they get shot. And no, throwing stones does not justify that. Israeli soldiers got at most a few bruises.

There is continues settler colonialism in the West Bank, with regular violence against Palestinians living there (journalists and children included). Israel regularly overreacts to violence from Gaza by leveling civilian infrastructure without providing proof that it’s being used by Hamas. In 2006, they tried to starve the population of Gaza (not to death, just to the point where they started suffering) to try and force Hamas out. Over 1000 palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons without any charges against them. Some children in prisons are held in solitary confinement (torture). A while ago it came out that Israel used to harvest organs from dead Palestinians, and currently they haven’t given back a few hundred bodies iirc. And human rights organizations have describes Gaza as an open air prison. It does a garbage job keeping weapons out, but it does do a great job hurting everyday Palestinian civilians (collective punishment, a war crime).

Hamas can’t defeat Israel with terrorism

I agree with you that it seems improbable for Palestinians to beat a huge military power like Israel, but plenty of things seemed impossible yet still happened. A lot of people thought the Viet Cong couldn’t win but they did. All that needs to happen is enough violence to force Israel to the bargaining table. Preferably the western world would do a BDS campaign against Israel, like we did with South Africa, but that also seems unlikely considering how much money the defense industry makes from them.

They would lose all support and wouldn’t be able to sustain themselves.

This is just speculation, we don’t know what it would look like if the Palestinians won. Some post colonial states did ok for themselves, others didn’t. They’re surrounded by other Arab countries, so even if the western powers decide to sanction them, they’ll still have some trading partners, but they would definitely be behind for a bit. Worth it in my opinion, if it means that there is relative peace.

Yes, the ANC used to put suspected collaborators in tires and burn them alive. They also took civilian hostages and killed civilians in bombings. The Viet Cong killed about 150k civilians. The algerians killed French people regardless of their combatant status.

If we go back in history, Israel was built on ethnically cleansed land. In 1948, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed by the Zionists militaries. Since then they’ve continuously been oppressed, and their land has continued to be stolen. Currently, they live under apartheid conditions according to human rights organizations.

This justifies armed resistance.

The native Americans and nat turner lost, the Viet Cong, the ANC, and the algerians won.

I did explain what conditions justified revolutionary violence and you said apartheid is ok actually. If you aren’t willing to listen, I’m just gonna stop responding.

Yes, I don’t think terrorism is always bad. Would you condemn the ANC, the Native Americans, the Viet Cong, Nat Turner, and the Algerians for doing what they had to do to fight oppression?

I can’t take you seriously when ur defending apartheid and settler colonialism like that. Disgusting.

Most gazans have been restricted to the gaza strip under a blockade for as long as they can remember. They’ve been unable to import certain foods and materials for their entire lives (even pasta wasn’t allowed until more recently). Sometimes, hamas or pij launches a few rockets, and maybe they kill or injure a few people if any. Israel responds by bombing the shit out of Gaza, destroying homes and killing families. When they try to peacefully protest, hundreds of them, including children medics and journalists, are killed by snipers, and tens of thousands are injured.

“58% of Gaza Strip residents required humanitarian assistance with 29% of Gazan households living in extreme or catastrophic conditions, the top two tiers of severity, against 10% in 2022.”

• https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-strip-devastated-by-conflict-economic-blockade-2023-10-12/#:~:text=THE ECONOMIC IMPACT&text=Gaza’s unemployment rate is among,Central Bureau of Statistics says.

In the west bank, Palestinians are forced out of their homes. They aren’t allowed to use certain roads. They regulary are abused and killed by settlers (who aren’t supposed to be there under international law), and the idf backs the settlers up. It’s apartheid according to international organizations.

If I was in those conditions, and my friends or family were killed by settlers or an airstrike, I would probably want to join hamas/pij/PFLP too.

How for example?

Gee, I wonder how you get rid of an extremist resistance organization built out of the hatred of a people that has been subject to horrific apartheid conditions for their entire lives. Maybe undermining that hatred by treating palestinians like human beings is worth a shot? Or we can go ahead and keep killing their families, I’m sure that’ll get rid of hamas.

Betterhelp sponsored them, but its also kinda shit so maybe thats why the soldiers are so fucked up

Oh no it’s boomer humor