What I continue to assert is: if you ACTUALLY care about the Palestinian people, will trump be better for them? Because if you don’t vote for Biden you are effectively voting for trump because of how we handle elections.
And if Palestine is the only issue you care about… you are an incredibly privileged person who only cares about incredibly privileged people. But, again, do you honestly think trump would be better for Palestine?
If people threated to kill all your family if you didn’t kill one of them yourself, killing any of your family members doesn’t prove you ACTUALLY care about your family. Not everyone subscribes to outcome-based utilitarianism. If you do, cool for you. But there’s plenty of competing ethical frameworks people have and plenty of people don’t subscribe to any specific frameworks consistently, but still have rules that they believe shouldn’t be viable.
But, again, do you honestly think trump would be better for Palestine?
It could go either way, but probably would be worse in the short-term. Trump is such a baby that he could get mad over some slight offense (or unwillingness to participate in some form of corruption he demands of them) and decide he doesn’t want to play with Israel anymore and he’s already shown he has no problem withholding approved weapon spending (even if illegal to do so). Not saying its likely, but Biden, is pretty much certain continuation of funding genocide, and possibly an escalation of that involvement when he no longer has to worry about re-election.
Donald threatened Iran with nuclear weapons. Donald tried to ban Muslims from the country. Donald wants Israel to finish the job. The Repubs, who usually have oppositional defiant disorder about everything the Dems do, want to arm Israel.
You can be smug as you like about choosing not to touch the switch on this trolley problem. But please pull your head out of the sand about what will happen.
Not going to touch that example with a ten foot pole but:
If your ethics require you to take a pointless moral stand that accomplishes nothing for the people you claim to care about? Cool. Have fun.
This is not the trolley problem where you are deciding if one person or ten people die. This is a case where that same one person is going to die either way but the other ten can be saved.
If your ethics require you to take a pointless moral stand that accomplishes nothing for the people you claim to care about?
It’s only pointless if a few people do it…
Like literally every social change, including voting.
If enough people say “I can’t vote for Biden because of his support of Israel” then a rational candidate would appease their voters, at least till after the election.
If the candidate refuses to do that…
Whats the point in voting for someone who openly refuses to care what their voting base wants?
You’re mad at the wrong person here. Be mad at Biden for putting Israel over America, when according to your opinion, Israel wouldn’t have an issue continuing genocide with trump in office.
Think about Biden’s refusal to listen to voters and that for a minute.
Okay. What does not voting for Biden and letting trump win do for Palestine?
is the orange fuckface going to say “Oh wow. I only won because Biden handled Palestine so poorly. Let me go fight for the rights of ‘muslims’”?
OH! I know. The Democrats will decide they need to do better during the next election as we lose even more supreme court judges and the next election never happens (as per gop plan). But hey, maybe a few Palestinians will be alive in four to infinity years.
Biden just will never listen to the voters who put him in office?
Sounds like a candidate voters won’t turn out for, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
If we can’t get a better candidate, and get push our only option left…
How is it voters fault for disengaging?
Like, you’re arguing from the point that Biden listening to voters is impossible, while telling voter they need to put in effort to elect him again after he disappointed us from last time.
I just don’t see how someone could make the same arguments months away from the primary ending…
And deciding the best course of action is to not only keep Biden, but completely give up on dragging him to the left so he stands a chance
There are things Biden will listen on. There are things he won’t. The past 30 years or so have made it clear that Israel is not something he will listen on.
But I am not a single issue voter. There are a lot of issues I care about. And I agree with Biden on many of those.
By all means. Protest. But when it comes time to vote? Fucking vote.
I could MAYBE understand this if trump were out there talking about Palestinian human rights (I am sure we could find a hot Palestinian for him to assault…). But he isn’t. He is going to be just as bad, if not worse.
Primaries and every day but election day is about fighting for what you want. Election day is about minimizing harm. Welcome to being an adult. And if “voters” don’t understand that then yes, I do blame them (and us as a people).
“Single issue voter” is bullshit to fracture a unified base that’s rallied around one cause. Absolutely none of them literally only care about this and nothing else.
It’s just when lots of average people rally around one common issue, change can happen.
So the people in power try to fracture that unified base and find something they disagree with.
It’s all basic psychology. If you stop and think why that always comes up when there’s a large movement for one issue, it’s really obvious
If nobody cares about only one issue then why are people talking about pissing a vote away because:
Both candidates have basically the same stance on their number one issue
They are too lazy to look at any of their other issues
But yeah. I agree that nobody is actually a single issue voter. Which is why it is important to understand there is more than one issue at play here.
Change CAN happen if the two parties have a different stance. republicans got CLOBBERED because a shocking amount of their base actually care about abortion rights. Democrats have not done anywhere near what they fucking should on that front, but they are the pro human rights party… when it comes to that.
In this case? Both parties have the same stance. It isn’t like letting trump win will at all help the Palestinian people.
Gaza is a big issue, and Biden’s treatment of those that disagree with him isn’t that much different than trumps.
Biden has said the same bullshit about recent protests that Trump said about BLM.
People see that, and it makes them think there’s no chance that they or anyone else can change Biden’s mind about anything else.
And that’s a bad look when your goal is turning out dem voters.
You sound like you get that, but instead of being mad at Biden, you’re mad at everyone else.
That’s where we disagree.
I constantly heard “Biden isn’t a dictator” as an excuse for his inaction, but funding a genocide is an overt action he refuses to stop. And even went around Congress at one point.
He’s throwing away all his integrity, and people aren’t trusting him anymore.
While I completely agree that the US should pull all aid from Israel and hold them accountable to International Law, you forget that almost half of Congress and US citizens still support Israel’s actions. Granted, it’s likely due to media bias, but that doesn’t change the fact that the President represents them as well.
They were responding to me instead of you and just clicked the wrong comment I think, just to give them some grace. I would wait for a comment addressed to yours specifically because they may have a different framing.
I did not claim it is not an important issue.
What I continue to assert is: if you ACTUALLY care about the Palestinian people, will trump be better for them? Because if you don’t vote for Biden you are effectively voting for trump because of how we handle elections.
And if Palestine is the only issue you care about… you are an incredibly privileged person who only cares about incredibly privileged people. But, again, do you honestly think trump would be better for Palestine?
If people threated to kill all your family if you didn’t kill one of them yourself, killing any of your family members doesn’t prove you ACTUALLY care about your family. Not everyone subscribes to outcome-based utilitarianism. If you do, cool for you. But there’s plenty of competing ethical frameworks people have and plenty of people don’t subscribe to any specific frameworks consistently, but still have rules that they believe shouldn’t be viable.
It could go either way, but probably would be worse in the short-term. Trump is such a baby that he could get mad over some slight offense (or unwillingness to participate in some form of corruption he demands of them) and decide he doesn’t want to play with Israel anymore and he’s already shown he has no problem withholding approved weapon spending (even if illegal to do so). Not saying its likely, but Biden, is pretty much certain continuation of funding genocide, and possibly an escalation of that involvement when he no longer has to worry about re-election.
Edit: fixed typo: made->mad
It would not go either way, buddy.
Donald threatened Iran with nuclear weapons. Donald tried to ban Muslims from the country. Donald wants Israel to finish the job. The Repubs, who usually have oppositional defiant disorder about everything the Dems do, want to arm Israel.
You can be smug as you like about choosing not to touch the switch on this trolley problem. But please pull your head out of the sand about what will happen.
Not going to touch that example with a ten foot pole but:
If your ethics require you to take a pointless moral stand that accomplishes nothing for the people you claim to care about? Cool. Have fun.
This is not the trolley problem where you are deciding if one person or ten people die. This is a case where that same one person is going to die either way but the other ten can be saved.
It’s only pointless if a few people do it…
Like literally every social change, including voting.
If enough people say “I can’t vote for Biden because of his support of Israel” then a rational candidate would appease their voters, at least till after the election.
If the candidate refuses to do that…
Whats the point in voting for someone who openly refuses to care what their voting base wants?
You’re mad at the wrong person here. Be mad at Biden for putting Israel over America, when according to your opinion, Israel wouldn’t have an issue continuing genocide with trump in office.
Think about Biden’s refusal to listen to voters and that for a minute.
He cares more about Israel than America.
Okay. What does not voting for Biden and letting trump win do for Palestine?
is the orange fuckface going to say “Oh wow. I only won because Biden handled Palestine so poorly. Let me go fight for the rights of ‘muslims’”?
OH! I know. The Democrats will decide they need to do better during the next election as we lose even more supreme court judges and the next election never happens (as per gop plan). But hey, maybe a few Palestinians will be alive in four to infinity years.
So you think regardless of amount of protest…
Biden just will never listen to the voters who put him in office?
Sounds like a candidate voters won’t turn out for, and when turnout is low, republicans win.
If we can’t get a better candidate, and get push our only option left…
How is it voters fault for disengaging?
Like, you’re arguing from the point that Biden listening to voters is impossible, while telling voter they need to put in effort to elect him again after he disappointed us from last time.
I just don’t see how someone could make the same arguments months away from the primary ending…
And deciding the best course of action is to not only keep Biden, but completely give up on dragging him to the left so he stands a chance
I just don’t get it
There are things Biden will listen on. There are things he won’t. The past 30 years or so have made it clear that Israel is not something he will listen on.
But I am not a single issue voter. There are a lot of issues I care about. And I agree with Biden on many of those.
By all means. Protest. But when it comes time to vote? Fucking vote.
I could MAYBE understand this if trump were out there talking about Palestinian human rights (I am sure we could find a hot Palestinian for him to assault…). But he isn’t. He is going to be just as bad, if not worse.
Primaries and every day but election day is about fighting for what you want. Election day is about minimizing harm. Welcome to being an adult. And if “voters” don’t understand that then yes, I do blame them (and us as a people).
Hardly anyone is…
“Single issue voter” is bullshit to fracture a unified base that’s rallied around one cause. Absolutely none of them literally only care about this and nothing else.
It’s just when lots of average people rally around one common issue, change can happen.
So the people in power try to fracture that unified base and find something they disagree with.
It’s all basic psychology. If you stop and think why that always comes up when there’s a large movement for one issue, it’s really obvious
If nobody cares about only one issue then why are people talking about pissing a vote away because:
But yeah. I agree that nobody is actually a single issue voter. Which is why it is important to understand there is more than one issue at play here.
Change CAN happen if the two parties have a different stance. republicans got CLOBBERED because a shocking amount of their base actually care about abortion rights. Democrats have not done anywhere near what they fucking should on that front, but they are the pro human rights party… when it comes to that.
In this case? Both parties have the same stance. It isn’t like letting trump win will at all help the Palestinian people.
Because:
Gaza is a big issue, and Biden’s treatment of those that disagree with him isn’t that much different than trumps.
Biden has said the same bullshit about recent protests that Trump said about BLM.
People see that, and it makes them think there’s no chance that they or anyone else can change Biden’s mind about anything else.
And that’s a bad look when your goal is turning out dem voters.
You sound like you get that, but instead of being mad at Biden, you’re mad at everyone else.
That’s where we disagree.
I constantly heard “Biden isn’t a dictator” as an excuse for his inaction, but funding a genocide is an overt action he refuses to stop. And even went around Congress at one point.
He’s throwing away all his integrity, and people aren’t trusting him anymore.
While I completely agree that the US should pull all aid from Israel and hold them accountable to International Law, you forget that almost half of Congress and US citizens still support Israel’s actions. Granted, it’s likely due to media bias, but that doesn’t change the fact that the President represents them as well.
https://zeteo.com/p/gaza-israel-genocide-poll-ceasefire-us-voters
You mean republicans?
Mostly, yes. A Democratic President is just as responsible for representing them as they are Democrats. I wish it weren’t true, but that’s the job.
They were responding to me instead of you and just clicked the wrong comment I think, just to give them some grace. I would wait for a comment addressed to yours specifically because they may have a different framing.
Yeah, just saw that