For decades, we have been in the streets in defense of the Palestinian people, and will continue to fight until the total liberation of Palestine!
For decades, we have been in the streets in defense of the Palestinian people, and will continue to fight until the total liberation of Palestine!
I agree with them that Palestinians should be free, that Israel should stop the genocide, that America should stop supporting the genocide. And I agree that Donald Trump would be the worst possible candidate to put in charge of the executive branch of the US government.
I only disagree with two points. First, I do not agree that Kamala Harris is the same as Donald Trump, not on any issue. Second, I do not agree that voting for a nonviable third party in a national election will have any effect on Democrats or their policies.
I agree with de la Cruz on more issues than I do with Harris. Healthcare, taxation, military spending, reparations, Indigenous sovereignty… Pretty much everything except those two points, so I’m voting for Harris because she’s better than Trump.
So you don’t actually agree with them regarding Palestinian lives, you agree with Harris. Simply saying “ideas sound good” doesn’t mean you agree with them, even if you think they would be better. If your actions prevent ideas you think were good, like cessation of Palestinian genocide, then you don’t actually support said ideas.
I’m not sure how I can be more clear. I disagree with Harris on most issues. I will vote for Harris because Trump would be much worse.
There are no actions available to me that will end the Palestinian genocide.
https://files.catbox.moe/bcu4mt.mp4
These people are part of an organization that does sabotage like this. The last team got fully acquited as the jury refused to convict them.
Cool. So now that they have ended the Palestinian genocide, I guess we don’t have to worry about it anymore?
Okay so you’re not willing to do anything unless you, through your personal actions, can stop an entire genocide? Or are you trying to make a different point?
You are currently complicit in the genocide by advocating for genociders and normalizing genocide as just another “lesser evil” policy plsnk.
You and I both know you haven’t even tried to find anything to do. If you had, you would have found it easily and would be listing it for credit. You can join socialist groups such as PSL (though they would not take you until you became more educated) or FRSO. You could help the ANSWER Coalition or other groups present at protests. You could promote BDS programs that turn up the pressure on Israel. You could dedicate your time to opposing genocide apologetics. You could normalize support for the axis of resistance. There is a reason Kamala named Iran as the her idea if the biggest adversary, they are the state that is most strongly opposing this genocide. You could raise money for direct assistance to Palestinians (not NGOs) so they better survive.
Stop making excuses.
See, the cool thing about this is you already know everything about me, what organizations I have joined and support, what political and civil programs I participate in, so it’s extremely easy for me to recognize that you’re simply a liar. If you were just wrong, we could continue to debate, but you’ve chosen to deliberately misrepresent who I am, which means I can ignore anything else you say because you’ve proven to be dishonest.
It is a common tsctic of deflection to exaggerate a perceived opponent’s claims so that you can talk about the exaggeration instead of what was actually said.
I know some things about you based on your behavior. Not everything. And the things said I knew? You have not contradicted them.
Certainly none that support Palestine and oppose the genocide because they would kick you out for these sentiments. See how I know things?
This is just repeating yourself.
Tell me about your great organizing for Palestine and against this genocide, O Kamala Harris genocide vote shamer.
So you’ll goosestep with the DNC no matter how far-right they slide and will never lift a finger.
You would like to believe this in theory but clearly do not really think so. Otherwise, you would not be telling everyone to support the genocidal Biden-Harris administration.
We’ve had a Trump presidency and he didn’t start any genocides. The main genocide he continued was Obama’s targeting Yemen, but Trump deescalated it by comparison. We don’t need hypotheticals, we already know that, in action, your cabdidates are more bloodthirsty war criminals.
Though the entire premise is flawed. Maybe you should take a step back and ask what you are contributing to by normalizing genocide. By, instead of helping organize resistance, you are trying to sheepdog people back into the fold so they vote for genociders. Look at yourself in a mirror and reoeat those words.
Kamala Harris rarely takes any stances of her own, mostly just taking on others’ talking points. She then reverses course any old time with no consequences aside from the fact that nobody can name a single thing they like about her, There is nothing there to directly grasp onto rhetorically. You can have nothing to say about her policy positions with any confidence outside if her track record of tailing power and courting the right. California’s top cop just announced she would put a Republican in her cabinet, Lmao. Aren’t Republicans an existential threat, per your team-based logic?
But in action, we know she is lockstep with the Biden admin and the DNC was a dystopian nightmare of JOYOUS celebration of genociders (thank you Joe!) and Israel, though I repeat myself.
Democrats have routinely courted the votes of people that otherwise refuse to vote for them based on specific issues. This does not mean that they will actually respond to every demand, but your belief is ahistorical. Have you not notice Dems moving right? They’re trying to peel off Republican voters. Do you know why they do that? Do you know how their strategists think of their “left”, such as it is? They know that they could gain votes from Republicans and think they already have your vote locked down. What are you going to do, vote third party? This little piece of illogic works on you to disempower yourself. They don’t have to do anything except vilify their opponent and you do the rest of the work!
You need to develop discipline if you are to do anything good electorally, let alone stop excusing genocide.
Is a candidate better when they can get away with genocide without your opposition? Y’all went straight to sleep after Biden was elected and are now excusing genocide.
A candidate is better when they are on enough of the ballots to win the election. Claudia is not. She does not have any conceivable path to 270. She literally cannot win. Casting a vote for her is saying you don’t care who actually wins. I actually care.
First, just want to note that you ignored basically everything I said. If you can’t actually engage with what I say, you can always just not write a comment at all.
I challenged you to think about the harm created by normalization. You can’t help but try and slot it into “but my genocidet can win the election” logic. Do you not see the disconnect?
Yes everyone is aware of this, you are just catching up.
First, did you already forget how the electoral college works? It’s not like your vote is actually for Harris and will help her win in most states. But you loudly announcing support for a genocider does have impact.
Voting third party in this situation, as in most, says, "neither major candidate is acceptable to me. You are pretending this means a lack of investment in outcomes, but it actually means having a realistic idea of how you can begin to forward political interests rather than being a sheepdog for genocidal empire.
Again, your “strategy” is to cheerlead genociders. And of course it isn’t your strategy, it’s the same PR group-tested vote shaming strategy that has led to Democrats being able to openly do genocide while knowing they won’t lose your vote. Your “strategy” is why we are here.
I’m personally more partial to “I’m sorry I won’t sacrifice my trans friends’ lives to make myself feel morally superior,” but yours works too haha
Trans woman here, stop using the genocide happening against us to wipe your hands of the genocide happening in Gaza
If you actually oppose fascism, you have to join a socialist org. I don’t give a shit who you vote for, but the liberals won’t stop fascism, they structurally can’t.
Your opinion is noted, but I’ve heard the reverse of that statement from trans people as well, so…no? Trans people are not a monolith and you do not speak for all of them any more than I speak for all white 20-something dudes.
Cool, so you want to use trans genocide to justify your position, and you’ll listen to the trans people who agree with you but not to trans people to disagree with you.
This is good ally behavior /s
Don’t give a shit who you vote for but if you want to actually stop fascism you have to go join a socialist org. Liberals are structurally incapable of stopping fascism, as fascism is capitalism in decay and liberals support capitalism as their number 1 priority.
In a situation where I am being told to do 2 conflicting things that are effectively mutually exclusive, yes, I will pick the person I know’s wishes over some random stranger.
Is this mutually exclusive with your friend’s statement?
You should pick the correct thing rather than treating trans people like Pokemon.
I’m merely acting on the wishes of the person who asked me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not true. You made sure to make this about trans people and the political violence done to them and then tried to weasel out of listening to the trans person here that knows you should oppose genocide.
Please stop using trans people to justify support of genocide.
So maybe you should stop treating trans people like a monolith and develop correct opinions like, “genocide is unacceptable and I should work against it”.
This is why parent is correct and you are not.
The irony
Hey look a 20-sometging white dude that excuses the genocide of brown people. What a unique and uncommon development.
Your idea of working against genocide is…torpedoing other positive changes in people’s lives by not participating in harm reduction? Interesting choice
I’ve said nothing remotely like that. Though your attempt to characterize neoliberal genociders as harm reduction is noted.
I do actual work with and for trans people. Tangible things. Not sitting around being flippant about my support for genocide. That’s your sin to mull over. Maybe you will forgive yourself some day.
And I applaud your work - however, surely you must understand the risks of a second Trump presidency, given what you do.
And all my “supporting for genocide” amounts to is being stuck with a two-party system. I only “support” it insofar as I must by the virtue of my vote going to the party that enables it (the only 2 with a chance to win do). I made my peace with choosing to accept that the US foreign policy apparatus is going to do these things regardless of which major party is in power, and the best option available of the two is the one that doesn’t have a giant playbook for dismantling the few positive things we do have when they take power.
Contrary to what you may think, I truly do largely agree with many of the things being said here, BUT I have determined that the costs of effectively allowing Republicans to win by protesting and not voting for Kamala poses too great a risk to the things I care about. If my sin is weighing the lives of Palestinians today over the millions of climate refugees and minorities that will be harmed or killed by Republicans seizing power in the election, then so be it.
I have already addressed lesser evil logic for supporting genocide. You can respond to that if you’d like.
Incorrect. You can sit quietly under the two party system and be doing a better job than trying to vocally normalize genocide and get other people to think the same.
This also does not require you to vocalize normalizing genocide and telling people it’s cool to support genociders. It also does not require you to tokenize trans people as if your support for genociders is somegow in solidarity with trans people.
“I chose to help normalize genocide rather than work against it”.
I have already addressed the illogic of lesser evilism. You have neither a personal moral nor strategic justification for what you are doing. You are not, in fact, “realizing” or accepting any kind of insight. You are repeating bog standard PR-tested talking points from the party and its supporters.
No, you do not. You would like to feel like you do, but you actually work in opposition to them, and openly. You are not a friend or an ally of those facing genocide. You are a cheerleader for the genociders in power using their tired talking points. You are even being flippant and joking about genocide.
I have already addressed this.
To make myself feel morally superior is an absolutely wild thing to say for a genocide.
I was talking to a girl in beyruth. She was concerned about her parents. She wanted to flee to jordan, but the planes are full. Here’s the exchange.
hat's what I heard, these a-holes are putting warning that an area was gonna get bombed and then they bomb another place. Do you know where to go? You have family abroad? (...) 9:56 CEST Bonjour 9:57 CEST Yes and they are using phosphorous!! 9:57 CEST I was thinking of going to a relative of mine in Jordan 9:58 CEST My mom and dad refuse to leave 9:58 CEST Sadly they say that they would rather die in Lebanon 9:59 CEST It is heartbreaking to see my parents, who are so old, witness yet another war!!Yep. That sucks. Doesn’t change that I’m voting for Kamala.
I’d rather her be in charge than Donald “Finish the Job” Trump.
Don’t worry, Biden sent in the troops and approved the invasion of Lebanon.
Welcome to US foreign policy, paid for by all our tax dollars regardless of who is in charge.
Yep, therefore both the DNC and GOP represent “finish the job” genocide and ought to be abandoned entirely.
Nope. There are degrees of escalation and the possibility of pullback with one of them (hint: Evangelicals are a big part of the Republican base, who believe Israel plays a role in doomsday).
If the US went gloves off there wouldn’t be any Palestinian alive in a month if I’m being honest.
The US is already gloves off. They aren’t exterminating palestinians for moral reasons, they don’t give a shit about evangelicals. It’s about economics.
What are you doing to push Harris to the left on this position? She needs to change, not just because it’s the right thing to do, but because it could cost her the election. If you’re so worried about Trump winning, you need her to change on this.
Me? Not a whole lot if I’m being honest. I’m more focused on local issues in my deep red state to really worry about other things. “Put on your breathing mask before assisting others” or however the safety tag reads
I do not care about you at all.
And yet you replied to me first…how odd
In response to a first hand account of fear over genocidal bombing campaigns and exodus, you decided to center yourself and try to get in some genocidal-apologetic zingers.
Yup. I’m basically Hitler II
Hitler was in a position of power. You are more of a Himmler supporter that rationalizes pogroms.
But you will sacrifice palestinians to make yourself feel morally superior, of course, and eventually all of us when the duopoly fails to adequately address Climate Change and/or provokes World War 3, as they seem to be doing.
I’m not going to claim to be morally superior - I am making a pragmatic choice about the people I care about. But more to the point, you are actively delusional if you think the left at this stage has any hope of breaking the duopoly and making all these big changes and stopping genocide.
“No you don’t get it - we just need a few more people and the duopoly is finished!” What are you, 12? If we want to effect actual change, organize on a local level and start flipping seats in state legislatures, representatives in the house, etc.
It’s ludicrous to believe anywhere near a majority can occur when you have exactly fuck all for a track record to back it up, and that’s not even talking of how impossible it would be for any leftist executive to do anything in a largely conservative government with checks and balances.
Use your brain and think about how best to achieve your goals: a vote for the mildly more left candidate today (the one that will at least continue democracy and not gun down leftists) has a much better chance for the future than letting the Right win. If you think “if the right wins and things get bad enough, the worker revolution will be upon us!” then you’re even more delusional than I thought. Accelerationist nonsense like that will just make things worse for the climate and accomplish little, as there is still no way the American public would ever go for a leftist revolution (much less win it).
So tell me, what’s your plan besides cry about Kamala online and yell at people for making the pragmatic choice?
So you do not pragmatically care about Palestinians, got it.
Utter fantasy to believe that this is possible.
Only ones are Stein and De La Crúz.
You’re voting for the right, lmao.
I don’t, you’re the one voting for genocide and continuous right wing slides.
I simply will not support genocide, and will advocate others to organize and join leftist orgs, rather than continuing to goosestep with the DNC and GOP as they thrust the world into chaos. You’d actually vote for Hitler if 101% Hitler was running against him, and you would shame Leftists for not “siding with the left leaning candidate.” Hilarious.
So you think it is impossible for the left in the US to win then, got it.
Stein is a moron going for the top of the heap without any support whatsoever and only serves as a spoiler to let the right win.
The Dems are slightly left, so I will vote for the best option available.
So you don’t believe the left has a chance of flipping local seats and building support, but also want people to join leftist orgs for…reasons?
What’s the plan for when Republicans strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters?
Your plan of “I simply won’t support genocide” does at least as much as me voting for Kamala, that is to say, relatively little. You “not supporting” something doesn’t stop it from happening lol
The dems are not slightly left, they are right wingers, just not far right. You are voting for the right wing, for the billionaires, the weapon manufacturers, the oligarchs.
You don’t seem willing to listen to a counterargument, but just in case, you might need to consider where you would draw your red line for the lesser evil party. Cause there is necessarily for everyone a red line beyond which both parties would be indistinguishable (think of Hitler and the other party being again Hitler but if he funded the healthcare system a little more - these two alternatives gotta be universally indistinguishable). And since we established that, you should probably realize that for a lot of people that red line has been crossed long ago.
Dems are also far right, they just have different expressions of reactionary sentiment. A lot of it is wrapped up in wanting to appear progressive in comparison, but if you look at their real policies the material impacts are often far more negative, being more palatabke means by which to subjugate the masses to capital. Democrats have also been the essential supporters of every major foreign policy conflagration ostensibly done by Republicans.
They offer a small subset of “social” issues they coopted from the left and then gave themselves credit for. But it is not consistent. They are throwing immigrants under the bus, for example. And they are the consistent opponents of liberatory social change right up until in polls well and they can coopt and pretend to have always supported it.
But the type of support is always contradictory and often performative. They will wear “protect trans kids” pins and then support anti-homeless pogroms that disproportionately impact trans kids. They will attempt to use correct pronouns and then make it as hard as possible to get gender affirming healthcare. The only liberation they offer is to be assimilated into the capitakist nightmare and to suffer disproportionately while being told to be grateful.
Yeah totally, they give too little, it’s always performative, to distract and to use as talking points, they never roll back republican legislation (Clinton for example) and they always have the same line with republicans for the core capitalist matters, like foreign policy, military, police budget etc. It’s a made up dilemma 100%.
I just have to somehow approach people who disagree, I can’t be so absolute, that’s all lol
They are very far right. Biden government policies are on the right of Polish PiS, a protofascist party.
I’ve heard it all before about how the Dems are right wingers, and I agree, to a point. In practical terms, they are the best option available to make positive change for the things that matter to me, so they will have my support. That’s it. As for a line they must cross to lose said support…I’ll play it by ear and decide then. I don’t bother with tying myself to lines in the sand because things are always more complicated than they seem.
I will continue to vote for the Democrats because they mostly represent what I want of the two parties I am forced to work with because of our shit system. That’s all there is to it.
Electorally, yes.
The right wins if the Dems or Reps win.
The Dems are right-wing, increasingly so over time.
The electoral system is designed to prevent leftist change. Winning minor, local seats is not only ridiculously difficult, but upon gaining support the DNC and GOP collaborates against leftists, like what happened in GA and PA with PSL. Joining an org is so that leftists can build up dual power outsids the electoral system, revolution is the only way to avoid climate disaster and world war 3.
The same as when Democrats strip more worker protections, finish off Palestine, and make being in a union illegal to please their corporate masters. Encourage people to join leftist orgs like PSL, FRSO, and abandon the right-wing Democrats.
You supporting something certainly helps it happen.
Is there a line that the Dems could cross for you to abandon them? As the US gets more fascist due to Capitalist decay, which is accelerating, is there a jumping off point? Or will you stand in line with the US Empire the whole way?
Ah, there it is. You are just an accelerationist. Good luck with the revolution. Don’t be surprised when you get betrayed by the insiders who got more people to back them and end up against the wall like most leftist groups in popular revolutions.
I’ll waste more breath when you grow up a little and understand how the world works a bit more, lol. I’m sure more leftist infighting and crying online will help the cause until then!
You can’t respond to any of my points, so you project and call me an accelerationist for saying Capitalism is getting worse and we need to have a revolution. You can’t make this up, you declined to answer my question about a jumping off point from the Dems because that point doesn’t exist for you. Genocide is okay for you then, everything is justified except fighting back.