- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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I’m all for Europe doing their own thing. I’m an American and even I hate seeing the US use it’s position for bully politics. No citizen of any other country should ever thing that an American company or govt will treat them with dignity or respect. Look at how we treat each other.
Why do Visa and MasterCard exist? The middleman that jacks up the price while offering the end user nothing? Thanks capitalism.
There was a time back in the day it was useful.
Before smartphones, credit cards were the cashless option.
Now that we all have a more than capable payment terminal in our pocket, Visa and mastercard are obsolete
Sorta. Whomever does payment on your behalf has to be willing to extend credit for an immediate transaction while the very slow process of exchanging money happens at a delay. This is especially so if the transactions are international. I truly wonder how the phone with just an ordinary bank account does this. Is it Google/Apple who extend credit? If so, is that better?
Most other countries don’t have to rely on the antiquated network the US uses for resolving those bank to bank transactions. In South korea, Street vendors have what looks like a phone number posted on signage around their Wares or snacks and people just make effectively debit pushes from their bank to the merchant’s bank in real time with zero margins.
I kind of expect this is how the rest of the world operates and it’s only the us then sits on using its own infrastructure which it made one time, in the 1960s, and has refused to move off of since. This created a lot of the market need for a bunch of private companies to make their own little piggybacking solutions like venmo, zelle, square cash, and all the others.
Too be fair, a lot of major businesses in the US now just exist as financialization institutions extending debt to their large-scale clientele, under the guise of being manufacturing or data services. Like GM. Or Oracle.
I’d suppose the banks work with each other.
uh…NFC payments work through V/M.
They offer credit to losers to spend more than they should. But the credit rates are what used to be usury when the mob did it.
Hello, friends in civilized lands, especially those of you who work at financial institutions…
Some of us in the states are excited to watch you do some damage to the entrenched middlemen that have been skimming from all of us for so long. Please do consider letting us sign up for the new stuff. Our money is still worth something, for now!
I agree 100% but also this is like when you watch your brother punch your dad to make him stop hitting your mom, and you know you’re going to get the shit kicked out of both of you later for it.
…unless one of your grabs the crowbar and goes for broke…
Hey blue states…
This is like that son that was sexualy abused by his dad for years, then killed and ate him.
This is like that son that was sexualy abused by his dad for years, then killed and ate him.
Seconded.
i would gladly make the switch if for no other reason than just playing a tiny part in screwing over Visa and MasterCard.
Why? Cause fuck em! That’s why!
We should solve our own problems. Haven’t we exported enough problems abroad already?
great news
we need more alternatives to Visa and Mastercard.Nice. We have JCB in Japan but I think it piggybacks off VISA/Mastercard for overseas transactions. It’d be cool if it partnered up with a European counterpart for purchases made in the EU.
We have JCB as well but only for digging holes and moving earth.
I suppose I could do that too with my JCB, but it would take ages to get anything done since the card isn’t very big or durable!
if Turkey was able to do it with Troy, why not Europe with Wero? Hope it all goes well
Interesting
Efforts are underway to expand the international e-commerce presence of TROY, which is already widely used and 100% accepted at all retail locations and e-commerce platforms across Turkey.
source Translated with translate.kagi.com
Turkish person here: Troy is not yet that popular, but it is slowly getting there. Give it another 5 years. The best example is probably Brazil’s Pix.
Pix is amazing but it is like an instant bank transfer. One cannot buy on credit through Pix.
That’s not exactly true. You can pay through an existing credit card via Pix (it doesn’t have to be Visa or MasterCard), or pay in instalments via pre-approved credit with the bank.
Probably a good thing. Buying on credit is a very bad way to spiral into crushing debt.
Not the same thing. Every european country already has domestic Troy.
Great news. In India we have UPI which already made Mastercard and Visa come to their knees.
Just if it worked with international payments.
Currently, International GPay required a credit/debit card and I am unaware of a proper UPI solution for it.
Also, we lack proper FOSS UPI for Linux despite efforts, due to it being dependent on cellular networks.
I’m glad to see Visa suffer, but I’m pretty concerned that Wero requires a proprietary phone app. There is no way to shop using Wero without this proprietary software.
It doesn’t require an app. When you pay, you select your bank and it will redirect you to a page that the bank provides. My bank provides a QR-code I can scan with their banking app, but it also offers a log in form to pay.
So I guess it is based on what your bank is willing to provide.
This is based on my experience with ‘iDeal’ the predecessor of wero.
Wero is intregrated into the banking apps we already have. In Germany the banks ING, Volksbank and Sparkasse already implemented it.
That’s just a different proprietary app though.
Are any of those apps FOSS?
Is Wero OpenSource ? Between me & you, I really hope GNU-Taler gets mass adoption they are on version 1.3 I think
what does GNU Taler do exactly? is it just another blockchain-like cryptocurrency scheme? Does it require a traditional bank to provide some kind of API? How does institutional oversight work?
It’s in the website.
Yeah, i was thinking the same thing. Changing one evil for another.
Alas I don’t think the USA will have the political stability to ultimately allow the adoption of an alternative. There is zero point building something that also accommodates the USA right now as the new King is quite likely to ban it and waste all the time put into it. Even a treaty put in place wouldn’t stop this from happening, so frankly its not worth an EU or any other countries company anticipating doing anything with the USA for the foreseeable future.
allow the adoption of an alternative
Why would the EU need an approval from the USA?
USA can use whatever the fuck they want. This is to replace all the transactions happening within the EU.
Having your own transactions system is a big win for the EU, even if no other countries adopt it, and it’s a massive loss for the USA.
Personally, I think having WERO available to Americans would be a good thing for Europe. It aligns the American population more closely to Europe, and if America has a civil war, Europe would have stronger economic ties with the side they favor.
As an American, I certainly wouldn’t mind using WERO. Aside from buying my hentai games without censorship, I would like to keep my money in a safe institution. DOGE broke into America’s social security systems, and exfiltrated data that includes things like bank account numbers. It wouldn’t be surprising if Donald withdraws money from his enemies, without any oversight. Or just orders the banks to do so on his behalf, with ICE in every branch.
Point being, I don’t trust America with my wealth. Europe should use that feeling as a springboard for global spread of the Euro.
I don’t think the USA will have the political stability to ultimately allow the adoption of an alternative.
“Stablecoins” exist and are among the most popular cryptos (1).
the new King is quite likely to ban it
Trump literally has his own stablecoin (2), not to mention other crypto grifts.
At the end of the day capitalism is a grift regardless of the food chips used.
So he’ll probably ban OTHER stablecoins to get a monopoly, and probably have the government sign a 10 years long binding contract with his own business.
Love to see it.
Anything that diminishes Visa and MC’s power is probably a good thing.
Costco broke up with VISA so, it’s possible. Re-establish the Templars again as the new money lenders from old.
What Would Jesus Do? Probably burn down banks and most churches.
When was that? I still can’t use my credit cards there unless they are visa
The Costco in Canada I go to only accepts Master Card.
In america they have a partnership with visa and don’t take other cards unless they are debit. Mexico Costco also takes discover and other cards
Discover wants a $25k retainer from me to take them as an option. Its just not realistic for smaller businesses when they have such a small footprint.
They accept cash.
Great if you don’t mind a wallet overflowing with loose change.
Crazy that we don’t have a public sector payment processor, though. You’d think we could have a Generic Card tied to a public bank that handles electronic payments efficiently. But it’s been over 40 years since we began consumer grade electronic transactions and its still entirely within the scope of the private sector.
Don’t you guys have EFTPOS?
Hello fellow Aussie/Kiwi. No, they don’t. Or they kinda do but call it something else and it still usually runs through a middleman rather than a direct bank-to-bank transfer - E.g Visa’s Visa Debit or MasterCard’s Maestro. EFTPOS still doesn’t work online unless using a middleman either, like PayPal or Square.
yeah I know eftpos doesn’t work online but they were discussing in person transactions at costco.
not having eftpos? Eeeeewwwww. Fucking backwards barbarians.
Interac isn’t too bad right? I agree with you that sort of service should be public, but I heard (years ago) that Interac is non-profit.
Edit: I should have just checked before posting: “Interac and Acxsys were combined into a single for-profit organization, Interac Corporation, on 1 February 2018”
Still, talking to vendors, it sounds like the fees are quite low, and I try to pay debit when it’s a small business.
Interac is non-profit.
OpenAI started out as non-profit. Quite a few health insurance companies (Blue Cross Blue Shield, for instance) are organized as non-profits.
shrug
Still, talking to vendors, it sounds like the fees are quite low, and I try to pay debit when it’s a small business.
Sure. All good when it works for you. But this isn’t some kind of wholesale replacement for Visa that doesn’t run the obvious risk of becoming Visa 2.0 (or whatever X.0 iteration of credit card companies we’re currently on).
One of the things I heard Musk say was that it shouldn’t be possible for a non-profit to just be converted into for-profit. Have to agree with him on that.
Nobody ever put change in a wallet.
Hi there I am Nobody.
You want trump in control of our commercial transactions?
He’s appointing the next Fed chair as we speak. We’re a bit past feeling squeamish about what Trump controls.
So then you do understand how having our transactions controlled by the government is a bad thing?
Brazil has a payment system (called Pix, IIRC) that seems to work well, and has survived some… questionable leadership.
I don’t know much about it (maybe a Brazilian can say more about it), but it seems to serve the businesses very well there.
I think the Digital Euro is going to be a better idea long term - taking off the hidden tax of payment processor fees is going to make businesses and people richer.
Don’t you think it has some privacy concerns? And how does it affect small businesses relying on cash? I’m asking genuinely, these are intuitive and not well thought out concerns.
Man I wish I lived in the EU
Right? The ecconomic benefits, the lack of financial catastrophy from suffering a paper cut, living wages, acessible mass transit, and the political stability. It must be like waking up every day in a dream.
Unfortunately the combined forces of US and Russian propaganda machines try very hard to ruin it for us, and they see some success in depleting EU membership support in polls and various political unrests
“Politic stability”
Hahaha…Good joke…
To be fair, it isnt as bad in the USA but you can’t really say it is really stable. The far right and conservatives are getting stronger and the left/right trench is getting bigger
The US is exceptionally stable. Their current administration has been demolishing their country for an year and they’re still in power, with support from the other branches of government.
Having lived in a couple of countries in Europe, from The Netherlands which has Proportional Vote system and a thus a multitude of small parties to Britain with a First Past The Post system like the US and thus pretty much a Two Party System, I’ve concluded that at least in Politics stability is just like standing water - it invariably turns into a swamp.
We need some amount of constant change to bring up and flush out the rot that innevitably accumulates in the murky waters of a system were power is always in the hands of a subset of people who are all in the same social circles, went to the same schools and whose sons and daughters marry each other.
Not “Daily Revolution”, just regular change so that any funny business going on outside the public eye risks being brought to light, destroyed and the guilty people punished because power has changed has to people who aren’t mates of the crooks that did it.
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More money ≠ more purchasing power
We may don’t get multi 6-figure jobs, but we also don’t have to pay 5-figures to visit a healthcare place and fear for our lives by being at will employed. And the CoL is probably also way lower in comparison.
I’d rather continue living here than in USA
Yeah but we pay way less for housing and health.
At least in Europe housing is at the moment proportionally to incomes just as bad as in the US.
Totally agree on Health, though.
In my country the vast majority of people can’t afford to live alone, because housing’s too expensive for a single person. It has always been so, traditionally you lived with your parents until you got married, then with your families’ help you’d get somewhere to live, if you were well off enough they’d help you start a mortgage, etc.
Nowadays families can’t set aside that kind of savings anymore, for the most part, so the help they can provide is severely reduced.
Shit was rough for Millennials, I have no idea how Gen-Z’ers manage, as it seems to be even worse now.
Right. The Weimar Republic had their population making substantially more cash than at any point before 1923. They used to be able to take wheelbarrows of cash to the grocery store.
It’s true for software engineering because the salaries in NA are insane due to the insane profits those companies are making. But for the average job, life is better.
We generally pay less
Serious question: what is stopping you?
It’s not a simple thing. You really need some personal tie like ancestry or marriage, go to a university, or be sponsored for work.
I don’t think that’s true. Granted I am from here but just to come and start to work us citizens find it way easier than other nationals. Take it in small steps. Most countries allow you to apply for citizenship after 5 years. You just have to find work and accommodation. Some countries do require proof of ancestry like Ireland but there are many others that dont. Some even have free universities like the Nederland or Germany and they teach in English.
I may not know all the subtleties so don’t quote me on that!
Unies are usually not free for non-citizens. At least not where I live.
i am not saying all all free but you can find free if you need to:
https://www.student.com/articles/countries-american-students-study-free-europe
and even if you don’t find, the tuitions costs are lower than US and even UK now. have a look maybe you can find something that peaks your interest. the rest of the world is a lot more diverse than the US.
Finally someone is doing something about this. I worked in finans and people wouldn’t believe the amount of money that goes to America because we use EMV and whatever the payment transaction system was called.
I’m all for a European system like this, but the only downside I currently see is that using Wero wouldn’t provide any protection in the same way that a credit card does, unless I missed that on the Wero website.
Give me the consumer protection of a credit card and I’ll sign up to Wero or whoever!
Does Visa/Mastercard actually offer any protection themselves? When I’ve had to reverse debit card transactions due to fraud or otherwise, I always just called/reached out to my bank and they did it. I never communicated with Visa/MC. Since this system is pretty much SEPA in a trench coat, I’m pretty sure the same would work here.
Yes they do offer actual protections.
A debit card while using visas processing network is still your banks account and their responsibility. And it’s your personal money. Unlike a credit card which is NOT your money and not your sole liability. You are jointly liable with a credit card and solely liable with a debit card.
A credit card the account is with visa, tho it may be managed by your bank thanks to partnerships and bank end integration. Depending on the circumstances you actually will be directed by your bank to contact visa or who ever directly or be forwarded by your bank.
Debit cards are not credit cards. This seems to be a weird hang up people can’t seem to understand. Doubly so when they are from Europe. It’s always struck me as odd.
Yeah - that’s why I always use credit if I can. If someone steals my credit card, I’m protected. The money doesn’t even leave my account, so I don’t have to worry about losing access to my funds for a few days while everything is worked out.
Aha, interesting. I never had a credit card because it would be too stressful for me to take out micro-loans for stuff. Still weird that it’s visa/MC money and not your bank’s though.
A credit card the account is with visa, tho it may be managed by your bank thanks to partnerships and bank end integration. Depending on the circumstances you actually will be directed by your bank to contact visa or who ever directly or be forwarded by your bank.
Do you have a source on this? Because it directly contradicts EVERYTHING I have ever experienced. Visa is a payment processor, but more as a middleman. I’ve even been redirected (through automated systems) back to my bank when making a purchase using a Visa card. Any disputes are handled by bank. You can’t get a Visa card without going through a bank. My debit card has a MC logo and can be used as such, but it’s also my ATM card.
Your point about debit vs credit is valid, though possibly more convoluted than needed. On credit, it’s someone else’s money in limbo, until the bill is paid.
Visa/Mastercard requires all cardholders, cardholders’ banks, merchants, and merchants’ processors to follow the comprehensive set of rules for disputed transactions. That way the dispute process tends to be uniform across different banks and across different merchant/payment processors.
The network sets the rules, while the banks implement those rules on behalf of the cardholder and the processor implements those rules on behalf of the merchant.
So replacing the network will require a comprehensive replacement for the network’s dispute resolution rules (assigning who is responsible for paying when certain things happens) and procedures (how a cardholder can initiate a dispute and how that gets resolved).
As far as they writes the rules, no thanks
Ok, so this makes the most sense to me. This would indeed need to be handled, I think the best solution is for EU to come up with a set of dispute resolution procedures and pass it as a law for everyone to follow. That way, disputes would be resolved the same way regardless of what network or bank you are using, which sounds the most reasonable to me.
That’s a very good point - it isn’t Mastercard or Visa involved in the card protection. Thank you!
So I guess I’m actually saying: if Wemo offer credit, then count me in!
what protection credit card provide?
In the UK the credit card company are joint liable for any purchases over £100.
So if I buy X from company Y for £100, and company Y fails to deliver, or goes into administration, or whatever, I go back to the credit card company and get my £100 back. Or looked at another way, I don’t pay them the £100 and they swallow the cost.
didn’t know that thanks
You’ve never used cash?
Hope they don’t just end up recreating their own version of it
They will.
Let me be delusional in peace
But… But… Blackjack and hookers…
What is GNU Taler?
A system that guarantees privacy for the consumer but transparency for the seller (to avoid tax fraud). But It’s basically a digital wallet for the consumer. If you lose control of the wallet, you lose the money on it.
Sweet that sounds good. How do you turn actual money into GNU taler, and spend it?
It’s still a payment system. You need banks and shops to get in. In practice, you would have to wire money from your bank account to the Taler wallet.
