Vegan milks are nice to drink, but they are very very different to real milk. Having tea with oat milk is a sacrifice (almond and coconut are worse for tea - they lack the sweetness that counteracts the bitter elements of tea), it doesn’t taste as good but it’s ok. It’s a small sacrifice to make, but a persistent one (given that many of us rely on caffeine to function at work).
There is a moral argument to be made, and the moral argument has the high ground if you avoid looking too carefully (nothing in life is simple).
The real crux of the vegan argument is “can people also sacrifice this”, or is it one sacrifice too many in the world of compromises we endure. That’s a personal choice, and given the state of the world today, it isn’t one many will be able to make.
In my experience sacrifice is a relative matter, and soon dissipates. Every abstained choice gets replaced with an alternative, and the more alternatives that are explored the more it becomes apparent that there is an entire culinary world that has been ignored. It becomes apparent that what felt like sacrifice is in fact opportunity, and those opportunities are well worth investigating in full.
If you keep exploring plant-based options you will be a lot more likely to find what works for you, than if you just give up.
It has been for me. As a fellow tea enjoyer, lung function, gut health, a melting away of aching joints and physical malaise, seasonal allergy alleviation, and a shockingly boosted immune system are all benefits that I’ve personally enjoyed since going fully plant-based. Most likely heart benefits as well, but I won’t know for sure until I get my cholesterol levels tested.
But of course personal anecdotes are not valid evidence. Which is fine, because the science largely favors diets that are at least mostly plant-centric anyway.
Ad hominem fallacy is when the person is attacked as an invalidation of an argument.
You were defending the ethics of drinking cow’s milk, so talking about the ethics of drinking cow’s milk is perfectly on topic and not a fallacy. Otherwise, you’d be able to claim ad hominem on ANY counterargument!
lmao I wasn’t attacking your person (I am now though lol) I was calling your act entitled, based on the argument before. Yeah if you think you’re entitled to kill anothers child and take her milk, that’s entitlement. Literally the definition lmfao, begging redditors to actually look up the terms they use
I go shopping and see dissected corpses on display. I take the train and the ads show me people feasting on ground up, charred corpses. This is the standard background radiation to everyday life.
Honestly, I’m in favour of this, but that worries me.
In general, such actions will also raise the price of other goods as demand increase. You’d also need to keep non-meat prices low, and that’ll be expensive, meaning cuts elsewhere.
Making the world vegan isn’t just about stopping the meat industry, that’s rather like pulling cogs from a machine and praying it still runs. It’s about designing a better machine that doesn’t need those cogs, sacrificing to build it, and making sure it really is better.
For the vegan path that means sustainable agriculture (it isn’t at the moment), replicating tastes and caloric density (a key element of human culture), avoiding creating new issues (e.g. overuse of sugar, dietary issues with mycelial/nut sensitivity), and pushing food costs down.
So, if you want the world to be vegan, drop your current life and start working on the above!
We throw so much veg and bread and everything away, I would say it’s likely there’s plenty for everyone to eat even if we stopped producing meat this very instance. But obviously no one is arguing for that because that isn’t feasible. We don’t have the numbers (yet) to force this.
Reduction in waste is also a key step yes, one in which gains are being made. Teaching simple preservation techniques (e.g. oven toasting old bread) is also a good route to doing this.
It’s not about the individuals, I wasn’t even thinking of a household throwing away food when I wrote the comment. But the tons and tons and tons and tons of groceries shops throw out because people didn’t buy it. The harvests that are left to rot because transporting them wouldn’t be profitable. I don’t think me throwing out three day old bread is going to be that much less wasteful than heating up the oven rehumidifying it.
Vegan milks are nice to drink, but they are very very different to real milk. Having tea with oat milk is a sacrifice (almond and coconut are worse for tea - they lack the sweetness that counteracts the bitter elements of tea), it doesn’t taste as good but it’s ok. It’s a small sacrifice to make, but a persistent one (given that many of us rely on caffeine to function at work).
There is a moral argument to be made, and the moral argument has the high ground if you avoid looking too carefully (nothing in life is simple).
The real crux of the vegan argument is “can people also sacrifice this”, or is it one sacrifice too many in the world of compromises we endure. That’s a personal choice, and given the state of the world today, it isn’t one many will be able to make.
Cows milk is gross. Give me soy all day every day. Better tasting, better for you, better for the environment, better for the animals.
In my experience sacrifice is a relative matter, and soon dissipates. Every abstained choice gets replaced with an alternative, and the more alternatives that are explored the more it becomes apparent that there is an entire culinary world that has been ignored. It becomes apparent that what felt like sacrifice is in fact opportunity, and those opportunities are well worth investigating in full.
If you keep exploring plant-based options you will be a lot more likely to find what works for you, than if you just give up.
It should also be noted, dairy impairs the bioavailability of beneficial plant-based compounds. Here are a few studies. Milk and coffee. Milk and blueberries. And Milk and tea.
That’s an interesting perspective - no promises but I’ll give it a go and audit the stats on those papers.
If true, the price may be worth it.
It has been for me. As a fellow tea enjoyer, lung function, gut health, a melting away of aching joints and physical malaise, seasonal allergy alleviation, and a shockingly boosted immune system are all benefits that I’ve personally enjoyed since going fully plant-based. Most likely heart benefits as well, but I won’t know for sure until I get my cholesterol levels tested.
But of course personal anecdotes are not valid evidence. Which is fine, because the science largely favors diets that are at least mostly plant-centric anyway.
Talking about milk (why drinking milk from a different species? Would you drink milk from a dog? Or from a neighbours women? If not - why not?)
… fun fact, lactose intolerant is actually the normal form. Approx 75% of all humans world-wide are lactose intolerant.
The fact that people in “western world” can drink milk (and lactose) has been trained for some thousand years.
As an up, coffee with oat milk tastes better than with cows milk :) ymmv obviously.
Very true but coffee has a very unfortunate effect on my innards so I’m locked out of that one!
my sympathies :/ then again, I also used to drink way too much & toned down quite a bit
between you drinking tea without milk and mom losing her child for said milk your “sacrifice” seems kinda like just entitlement.
Straight to ad hominem - nothing of value to engage with here.
Ad hominem fallacy is when the person is attacked as an invalidation of an argument.
You were defending the ethics of drinking cow’s milk, so talking about the ethics of drinking cow’s milk is perfectly on topic and not a fallacy. Otherwise, you’d be able to claim ad hominem on ANY counterargument!
lmao I wasn’t attacking your person (I am now though lol) I was calling your act entitled, based on the argument before. Yeah if you think you’re entitled to kill anothers child and take her milk, that’s entitlement. Literally the definition lmfao, begging redditors to actually look up the terms they use
You’re literally having this discussion while looking at rape porn.
I go shopping and see dissected corpses on display. I take the train and the ads show me people feasting on ground up, charred corpses. This is the standard background radiation to everyday life.
It was put here by someone claiming to share your values.
It was. I don’t understand your point.
Why are you sharing rape porn?
That’s why veganism should be forced on people (just shutting down factory farms would drive up meat prices so much it might be enough)
Honestly, I’m in favour of this, but that worries me.
In general, such actions will also raise the price of other goods as demand increase. You’d also need to keep non-meat prices low, and that’ll be expensive, meaning cuts elsewhere.
Making the world vegan isn’t just about stopping the meat industry, that’s rather like pulling cogs from a machine and praying it still runs. It’s about designing a better machine that doesn’t need those cogs, sacrificing to build it, and making sure it really is better.
For the vegan path that means sustainable agriculture (it isn’t at the moment), replicating tastes and caloric density (a key element of human culture), avoiding creating new issues (e.g. overuse of sugar, dietary issues with mycelial/nut sensitivity), and pushing food costs down.
So, if you want the world to be vegan, drop your current life and start working on the above!
We throw so much veg and bread and everything away, I would say it’s likely there’s plenty for everyone to eat even if we stopped producing meat this very instance. But obviously no one is arguing for that because that isn’t feasible. We don’t have the numbers (yet) to force this.
Reduction in waste is also a key step yes, one in which gains are being made. Teaching simple preservation techniques (e.g. oven toasting old bread) is also a good route to doing this.
It’s not about the individuals, I wasn’t even thinking of a household throwing away food when I wrote the comment. But the tons and tons and tons and tons of groceries shops throw out because people didn’t buy it. The harvests that are left to rot because transporting them wouldn’t be profitable. I don’t think me throwing out three day old bread is going to be that much less wasteful than heating up the oven rehumidifying it.
You WILL eat your veggies and you WILL be happy!
there’s food that isn’t just veggies that also isn’t created from animal enslavement
True but most carnists weaning off the slaughter should be eating mostly veggies until their body is in a good place again.
just eat whatever you find tasty lol
The vegan burgers are too good, I’d die