This might sound like a question inspired by current events, but I’ve actually been thinking of this for a while and can give pointers to a few times I had asked this or talked about it.
The people who the masses look up to seem to have a strange way of dishing out their opinions/approval/disapproval of the groups of the world. Some groups can get away with being considered good no matter how negative their actions are while other groups are stuck with a high disapproval rating no matter how much good they might do, and a discussion on whether “culture” or a “cult” is involved almost always comes up.
An example of this is the relationship between Islam and Scientology, in fact this is the most infamous one I can link to having spoken about. People on a certain side of the thinktank spectrum (the same side Lemmy seems to lean towards at times) are quick to criticize Scientology even though they consider “classic Islamic philosophy”, for a lack of a better way to put it without generalizing, as not inspiring a call for critique to see how one may change it. And I’ve always wondered, why? One at times leads people to trying to exterminate innocent groups, the other one is just “Space Gnosticism” that has a few toxic aspects but hasn’t actually eliminated anyone. Of course, I’m not defending either one, but certainly I’d rather live in a stressful environment than one that actively targets me.
This question has been asked a few times, sometimes without me but sometimes when I’m around to be involved, and they always say (and it’s in my dumb voice that I quote them) “well Scientology is a cult, of course we can criticize them” and then a bit about how whatever other thing is being talked about is a part of culture. This doesn’t sit well with my way of thinking. I was taught to judge people by the content of their character, in other words their virtues, so in my mind, a good X is better than a bad Y, in this case a good cult should be better than a good culture, right? Right?
In fact, as what many might call a mild misanthrope, I’d flip it around and point out how, over the course of human history, alongside seemingly objectively questionable quirks people just brush off (like Japan for a while has been genociding dolphins for their meat value just above extinction “because it’s culture” or how there are people in China who still think dinosaur bones are a form of medicine waiting to be ground up), no group/culture has kept their innocence intact, every country having had genocides or unnecessary wars or something of the like, things they ALLOW to happen by design. Then they turn around and tell so-called “cults”, even the ones that have their priorities on straight compared to cultures, that they are pariahs and shouldn’t count on thriving, even though their status is one that doesn’t necessitate gaining any kind of guilt. I was a pariah growing up, almost everyone else revolved around a select few people that seemed in-tune to the culture, and they would say anyone who revolved around people outside the group (me for example) was “following a cult”, and this hurt at the time, but now seeing all the wars going on right now, I might consider this a compliment.
My question, even though it by definition might make affirming answerers question whether they are pariahs or a part of the cultural arena, is why does nobody agree? Why are cultures “always precious” while cults are “always suspicious”?
Cults tend to be defined by how they control their members. Cultures tend to form around similarities.
Succinct, and accurate 😘👌chef’s kiss
It confuses me then when I look and see good and bad of each. Many cultures have intolerance hardwired into them, so that even years after their worst atrocities, they still stand by them. Like in the UK, one of the “similarities” is that people still believe the conquests were “good”. Every time I hear about how many extra large palaces the royal family has, it makes me wonder if we’re going about our cult criteria correctly. Meanwhile I can list a number of cults that are pretty tame, like the Raelians, and even the worst cults have a better track record than the worst cultures.
It seems like you’re looking for a prescriptive definition of cult and culture that would cover every cult and every culture, and I don’t think you’re going to find one. Humans organize in complex ways that rarely align with strict definitions.
You might be able to learn more about what you are thinking about by looking into memes (in the Dawkins sense of the word).
The terms cult and culture have the same problem(s) as sect and religion. There is no one clear-cut definition, but many competing definitions, most of which are kind of vague or ambiguous. Both sect and cult are usually used in us versus them narratives. If you pick a random person and try to discuss if and why something is a cult/sect or culture/religion you are almost guaranteed to run into unresolvable conflict because you’ll likely have different definitions in mind. The obvious solution is to settle on a common definition beforehand, but that will just cause the next conflict because there are so many and there is no obviously correct one.
People often bring up an aspect of control as the defining characteristic of cults/sects. Does that make all states cults? Does that mean every major Christian denomination was a sect 200 years ago?
Another common definition is that of a new group splitting off from the established group. Does that mean the entirety of Christianity is just a jewish sect?
Most definitions, when applied rigorously, imply that every culture/religion has been a cult/sect at least for some time in the past. And here comes the trouble: Most people from some culture/religion will provide you with a definition for cult/sect, when arguing about it, but will not accept when you apply it to theirs and point out that by that definition it either is a cult/sect, or was 200/500/1000 years ago. Because most people use those terms to denote otherness possibly even in a pejorative way.
In an academic context (for example anthropology or history) the distinction between cult and culture or sect and religion can be useful when a definition is given in the context and it is applied consistently. Outside of academia those terms aren’t very useful beyond instigating people against each other or minorities, solidifying circle jerks, or starting flame wars.
My nonprofessional take on it:
Every culture started out as a cult and all cultures are or have been horrid given the opportunity.
Every religion started out as a sect and all the sects’ and religions’ fairy tales are equally ridiculous when observed from the outside.
The distinction between cult and culture, and sect and religion, has no net positive benefit outside of academia and should be avoided outside of fiction.
Cults exercise very direct and personal control from the deified leadership to the followers. It tends to mean abuse between central leadership and the followers. Cult practices have similarities to religions and draw from religious and spiritual claims (and can become religions), but are distinguished by certain patterns of how they control members:
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Isolate from those around you, especially family and friends that don’t agree with what you’re doing.
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Recruit others to the cult.
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Demonstrate value to the cult through humiliation and serving the petty needs of the leader. The petty needs will be described as being much more important than they really are.
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Harsh punishment and violence for stepping out of line.
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A culture of blaming followers for their sins, including things for which they are not in any way responsible or at fault.
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A hierarchy of power that is mostly about who gets to mete out abuse.
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A specialized set of terminology for common things so that they become an in-reference that offers will not understand.
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Isolation of “troublemakers” or people that fight back. Keeping them separate from one another.
The small size of the cult makes these things have a qualitatively different impact when it comes to social control. It’s not about some established mysticism or conservatism that you carry out some action or feel some guilt, it’s a distinct practice where every person around you forces conformity based on the whims of a very personal power structure and just a couple people who get to decide everything, and you usually live with them.
Anyways, the main issue with Westerners criticizing Islam or Muslims is that the discourse is absolutely saturated with racism and Western chauvinism that is just a more veiled version of what white supremacists say. It’s not particularly informed and, as part of the dominant hegemonic mindset of the oppressor class and oppressor nations, it gladly ignores that the most extreme, voluminous, and unnecessary violence is carried out by the power structures they implicitly or explicitly support, secular or not.
Some Western criticisms of Islam tend to present themselves as academic or at least thoughtful and informed examinations of theology and cultural practices. Sometimes they even take a critical look at other religions and cultural practices. But they very often lead to lazy and bigoted policy and advocacy positions because it’s less about understanding in order to improve the world and more about identifying an enemy and it turns out that the global movers and shakers would absolutely love to use those “principled” stances to justify the domination and destruction of entire countries and peoples with your consent.
You’ll notice that Sam Harris has become a full-blown islamophobe and neocon. He is not improving the world through knowledge or action, but justifying oppression by the global hegemonic powers that want to pillage for profit by playing on stereotypical racist fears. He’s also gone down the self-help grifter path. He’s really just laundering reactionary views through a distinct language of “skepticism”, views that would fit right in at a “race science” consortium in 1912 and a bloodthirsty US State Department meeting on how to justify the genocide of brown people in the Middle East.
I’m not someone who has mastered the information/misinformation part, but I do know it’s not lying to say that, if I was over in that part of the world where Islam thrives, I would be killed or put into a lower class for things such as gender and maybe even my national background if it was years ago (so a defense criticism argument could be made), and I also know it’s not lying to say those people are trying to come to where I live and “change” us. It’s definitely not their race/ethnicity I’m critical of.
My first reaction when some people identify as “a cultural Muslim” (as peaceful as they are; I’m not trying to imply they should all be put in one basket) is therefore to think “aww shit, there’s a whole piece of the fabric of the world (i.e. a culture) out there that has their vigilance set against my existence”. Then I think of cults (which I visualize as outside the fabric, that playing into the definition embedded in my question) and how (comparatively) accepting they might be, and I think “wait, why exactly is the classification supposed to mean anything again?”
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Just shooting from the hip here, but I think maybe you can see cults as a subset of cultures.
A cult is a small group defined by an authority figure, how it treats its members and its relationship with the rest of the world. They are often small groups, but can be large like Jehova’s Witnesses.
Cults are usually a subset of a religious faction, like baptists or Lutherans, which in turn is a subset of for example Protestantism. (There are non-religious cults as well of course).
And confusingly religions exist within cultures and can be a core part of their identity, but one religion can also exist in a totally different culture.
So I think you’re trying to compare all apples with a specific type of oranges here.
If cults are a subset of cultures (not asking out of disagreement), why do we consider one inferior to the other? Same question with nations and micronations (“real” nations have done a lot of harm).
Most likely it’s perception. If you’re not part of a cult, then likely the only time you hear about a cult is when something bad happens, so we associate cults with bad. In contrast, culture is often talked about in both good & bad terms (e.g. positive & negative work cultures), but generally you will hear more about the good sides of culture, especially in regards to travel.
If anyone is being harmed, member or non-member, then I think it should be stopped. That applies to both cult activities and cultural activities.
Space gnosticism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scientology
Someone who has read texts that fall under the “gnostic” umbrella would see their influence on Scientology, from the thetans (which matches “gnostic” conclusions of how souls work) to Xenu (who resembles the King of Darkness in Manichaeism).
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Cultures are just cults that have reached critical mass.
That feels like a thoroughly false statement. It implies that all cultures started as cults… so what was the cult of Minnesota devoted to?
All the religious groups that emigrated to the US? This take has so many issues, but pilgrims, quakers and mormons are probably somewhere on the cult spectrum
I’m only a californian and just a rereaction anthropologists but I have heard tales of the ‘hot dish’ and it’s centricity to social interaction.
“Hot dish” is a hilarious thing up there to me. It pretty much means anything someone cooks in a crockpot or as a casserole. But people act like “Hot Dish” is one thing, like “you ever tried my grandma’s hot dish?”. Like she only cooks one thing.
Lutheranism?
I’ve got a really unscientific answer that feels good in my head.
culture is so deeply ingrained and large that only two things could change it:
1: slow change from within
2: war/genocide
cults on the other hand are small enough and new enough and not deeply enough ingrained. it feels possible to defeat them in the “marketplace of ideas” as it were.
even if that’s not quite true, even if it’s not actually easier to argue can against scientology. it feels like it should be.
that’s why there’s such a difference in criticism too. because it comes down to “well what do you think should be done about it then?” it’s pretty clear that you can’t argue a person out of such a deeply rooted cultural belief.
also, it’s about who you’re criticizing in relation to yourself. a white person living in America has way more ground to stand on calling another white American out for having bad beliefs and practices. this is because you can understand where they come from and the culture around them
ultimately there is no concrete “good” and “bad”. for you to enforce your idea of that onto a people who universally agree that your “good” is actually bad then you’re the bad guy no matter how right you think you are. no matter how much your people think you’re right for what you do that’s cultural imperialism/plain old regular imperialism.
I don’t think cult, culture (including subculture and superculture) are mutually exclusive on the Venn diagram.
I tend to lean towards the definition that cults are groups that venerate persons and/or objects, rely on secret knowledge as a form of social status within those communities. Historically it has a negative connotation, but it can sometimes be entirely neutral, like when someone says Taylor Swift has a cult following or that they love cult films. Or the names of ancient spin-off religions like the Cult of Zeus Ammon.
Whereas cultures are just groups of people who share a common conceptual connection. Like ‘blood’ or ‘employer’ or ‘nationality’ or even ‘hobby’ or ‘profession’.
I think that it’s possible to have a subculture also be a superculture. Eg. The Baptist church is a subculture of the religion Christianity, but a superculture of its denominations like the Northern and Southern Baptist Convention.
I would consider the church of Scientology a cult, it has a culture of greed and secrecy, and it is a subculture of faith-based marketing, the unholy love child of economic and religious imperialism.
