Bro I’ll be real with you north Korea got fucking obliterated to the extent that they were living underground because every single building has been bombed to rubble. North Korea was definitely the victim of imperialist interference. No person in that country deserved that level of devastation.
A total of 635,000 tons of bombs, including 32,557 tons of napalm, were dropped on Korea. By comparison, the U.S. dropped 1.6 million tons in the European theater and 500,000 tons in the Pacific theater during all of World War II (including 160,000 on Japan).
…yea.
Also consider the fact that north Korea is roughly the size of Maine and Japan is roughly the size of the east coast.
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I think you’re misreading their comment? They seem to be pointing out how brutal it was, not downplaying it.
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That has no bearing on them starting the war. Don’t start wars and you are far less likely to suffer wars.
I was gonna ask if you also think this way about Palestine, but looks like I don’t need to.
Israel is finishing a war they did not start. Violence progressed to the terrorist attack but it didn’t start there. Do you really expect them to accept going back to the status quo that was progressively getting worse? That was the result of the last three conflicts.
Interesting how you can tell someone is a zionazi based on their comments in this thread. Almost like these are similar situations of people rising up against their oppressors.
I’m not sure how anyone could think that a massive terror attack including rape and kidnapping by the government of a state is not justified pretense for a declaration of war. This is textbook and I’m not sure how Hamas and you could expect anything less.
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Sounding alot like a zionazi rn
Edit: Lmao one of your comments
If the Palestinians didn’t want to be associated with Hamas then they should stop supporting them.
At least your genocidal tendencies are consistent; blaming victims for militarizing against foreign colonizers.
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Israel is missing from the picture
Israel didn’t start the war.
People like you always seem to wanna start the story at October 7th while ignoring any relevant history before it. In case you don’t know, israel and the zionist project took over Palestinian land and as a result almost a million Palestinians fleed palestine. Amongst many others who were killed. What I find interesting is that zionists in their correspondance with the British at the time is that they weren’t pressed about getting palestine to be their homeland, they were okay in finding somewhere else. One of the other possibilities was Uganda for example.
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The Jewish people came from Egypt no? And occupied other people’s land. And when they did take over Palestine it wasn’t in its entirety. If you count the number of years they lived there and had control over the land vs the amount they didn’t. Then you’d see the amount that they didn’t is greater than the amount they were there.
No. They likely didn’t come from egypt.
Where did they come from then?
Many, many people have been fighting over the land for thousands of years if you really want to go back. As far as I’m concerned, the land belongs to whoever can hold it.
Here’s a question for you, is morally okay to kill innocent children and women? Honestly the fact that you would say that tells me all I need to know about what type of person you are.
If that was the qualification for losing the right to the land then the Palestinians would have lost it long ago
They have lost it… They all live in open air concentration camps…
Where did I say that’s the qualification for who has the right for the land? Aren’t jewish people who emigrated there anyways from Egypt? Ill ask again, is it morally okay to kill innocent civilians? Innocent children and women?
That’s such a nonsense question even before the reality that both sides are killing innocent children, the most over used meme on the internet is the trolly problem but you’re still trying to act like you’ve never heard of it. Yes, if inaction results in a worse outcome then action is permissible from a moral stand point.
Yeah, so mass rape and terrorism is OK in your book if the ends justify the means? Hamas did start the conflict.
Israel was in talks with Saudi Arabia to normalize relations and Iran didn’t want that at all and they gave Hamas the green light to attack.
https://www.usip.org/publications/2023/09/saudi-israel-normalization-agreement-horizon
Everything that happens in that region is about Saudi Arabia and Iran.
No one said its okay. You’re very good at strawmaning me. If Hamas did commit such acts then of course there should be proper justice. However, proper justice isn’t blowing up innocent people and children. Just like you don’t blow up a school when there’s a school shooter.
Where we disagree is in saying Hamas didn’t start this current conflict. They certainly did. Has shit been going on here for millenia? of course. The “strawman” was to remind you of the fact this opened with mass rape and murder at a music festival – that’s a fact.
You seemed to argue that thousand years of history seemingly justifies that and I’m telling you that it does not. " If Hamas did "… So you’re absolute when it comes to Israel but when it comes to Hamas there’ are modifiers. Your bias is showing.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67613153
Israel has done plenty of things that they should not be doing. The warlike bombardment of a city is not justified and has soured world opinion against them.
My “bias” is not an argument. Everyone has their biasias. The problem is that israel continues to lie on the narrative and just in this short span of time we’ve seen their lies come out. Take the “40 beheaded babies” for example. I’m open to an independent investigator.
Also it’s very rich. You really like to dig on this issue of mass killing and rape and take issue with it but don’t take issue with israel doing the same exact thing and worse back. That is a double standard hypocrisy.
Keep strawmaning me. I never said it justifies it.
Yes it did when it started the settler colonial project and ethnic cleansing campaign in 1948 and all the subsequent oppression.
Jews started out buying the land legally until Arab nationalists started murdering them, making a one state solution impossible, then declared war on Israel when they used the UN’s two state borders.
Arabs who remained peaceful and stayed behind the 48 borders were not “ethnically cleansed,” and today are 20% of the citizens of Israel. Perhaps that oppression is due to constant violent attacks and a refusal to lay down arms and has nothing to do with ethnicity.
Buying the land legally from other occupiers, the Brits. The native population was never asked if they wanted to receive an influx of refugees from Europe, refugees that other European countries and the US straight up refused to take in.
Besides that, many Palestinians were indeed ethnically cleansed, and this is not even a debated fact, former Israeli soldiers came clean about it in interviews, talking in great detail about all the war crimes they committed.
The 20% Arabs in Israel you are talking about, although Israeli citizens, still do not enjoy the same rights as the jewish population.
I know all of this, I’ve been to Israel, I have jewish ancestry and relatives there.
And let’s not even talk about the Apartheid system on the over 7 million people living under a military dictatorship imposed by the IDF, which is straight up a crime against humanity.
LoL. This is just so stupid. The UN offered the Arabs the same deal. One side chose peace the other chose war.
In the 30s the Arabs were offered more than they were in 48 and didn’t want peace then.
900,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab Nations in the 40s. The Arab population in Israel has risen by tenfold since the inception of Israel. The population of Gaza has increased by a similar level.
You’ve fallen victim to Arab imperialist propaganda.
Hmmm yes let me take half your land then offer you a peace deal. Then claim you’re the one who’s causing the problems when you don’t take that “peace” deal. Ridiculous.
The lack of imperial Japan in this image is disturbing
At least imperial japan no longer exists. Anyone flying the flag is seen as a nationalistic weirdo by normal Japanese people.
Yeah totally. But if you dare even insinuate that Japan was anything other than a victim of WW2, the public outcry is so massive that you will be forced to publicly apologize and denounce your previous statement
Do you have something to back this up? That wasn’t the feeling I had during the seven years I lived in Japan. There was something of a victim mentality, but it wasn’t as militant as you are making out.
I’m quite certain that the Japanese understand that the imperialists were at fault for the war.
They’re understandably salty about how the war ended but were also extremely aware that alternative outcomes would have had much more death and destruction than just the two cities.
The US didn’t just drop nukes because they thought it was funny, they did it as a last resort because the alternative was meat waves on both sides.
It’s a pity, because the design (!) is pretty rad
The Japanese military still flies nearly the same flag.
No, only the geopolitical enemies of the west are bad.
Yes.😎
Do they play victim? It doesn’t look like
Noob here, can guess Russia with ukraine but can anyone supply the full list for context on this meme ?
The other two flags are North Korea (left) and Serbia (right).
North Korea began the Korean War by invading South Korea. It didn’t end well for them (or for the South, for that matter) but South Korea prospers today while the North is…well, North Korea.
For Serbia, it is one of the many states formed from the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Going from one country to several countries which were defined mainly by ethnic association was not a clean transition. There were Serbs living in other former Yugoslav countries, and Serbia used that justification to start occupying those majority-Serbian areas, similar to what Russia has been doing with Ukraine, Transnistria, South Ossetia, and to a lesser extent Abkhazia.
More specifically with Serbia, they were genociding until NATO stepped in and bombed them, and have spent the last 20+ years crying about how NATO was the big bad boogie man who attacked first, while simultaneously trying to destabilize Kosovo through frequent Russian backed violations of the MTA that ended the open conflict. Literal government policies of a schoolyard bully.
South Korea at the time was run by actual fascists, people often originally put in charge by the prior Japanese occupation who helped genocide their own people and kept by the “democratic” Allies because, being fascists, they really hated commies.
It’s also simply disingenuous to pretend North Korea’s economic problems aren’t mostly caused by the embargo they’ve been under for seventy years.
Does that make North Korea the victim?
Well, not really, but on the other hand, you can certainly understand the invasion.
Unlike some people, they actually were invading fascists. Ones that actually were their people’s oppressors, and even to this day most Koreans consider themselves a divided nation and support reunification, unlike Russia and Ukraine or Serbia and literally everyone else from the former Yugoslavia because the Serbs were dicks.
From that point of view it’s certainly easier to understand why they would portray themselves as victims compared to people who just want to conquer and genocide their neighbors.
But time is funny, you become what you hate, etc.
Can’t really say Marxist-> Feudal Monarchy is the typical trajectory though.
I don’t think South Korea was a fascist state…
But it certainly was a ruled by a nationalist right wing dictator.
My only source is slight knowledge on the Korean War and this: https://www.quora.com/Was-Syngman-Rhee-a-fascist
Autocratic and repressive. Syngman Rhee wasn’t really an “organic” leader either - essentially picked by the US because he spoke decent English. Imprisoned commies, eventually forced to resign (read: evacuated by the US government) after college kid protestors were murdered by police. South Korea was under autocratic military regimes for most of the second half of the 20th century.
Syngman Rhee’s political philosophy also had an ethnostate aspect to it - a sense of Korean superiority.
I’m not an expert in Korean history, but an autocratic, militaristic government which cracks down hard on communism and believes in a “master race” is getting into “if it quacks like a duck” territory. There are as many definitions of fascism as there are scholars of fascism, but I think it fits a traditional Eco/Griffin mold.
He pulled this type of shit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeju_uprising.
We’re splitting hairs here but he was a US puppet that happily killed his opposition.
Oh absolutely, that’s without a doubt at all. I’m just doubting the “fascist” part.
lol Serbians don’t need a majority. If there were two Serbs and a cup living in a given city, Serbia would claim it and ethically cleanse the shit out of it.
Bosnia has entered the chat…
North Korea - Korean war and Serbia - Yugoslav wars
Korean war and probably Kosovo war (or Yugoslavia wars in general) for Serbia
Not pictured: Japan (obvious reasons)
North Korea? Really?
The country that had fucking 20% of its population slaughtered by the US in just 3 years after Korea was split in two against their will after WW2?
Leave it to westerners to be completely ignorant of history lol
This ‘meme’ is disgusting.
You’re the one trotting out a simplistic black and white vision as if anything about any part of history is or can ever be explained in such terms. History is always much more complicated than our ideological biases would like.
There’s zero context in your comment. It’s just as biased as the meme is. You’re blithely glossing over the much larger historical context of WW2 and why the US was there in the first place, and you’re eliding the rather obvious fact that a sizable majority of Koreans were opposed to the attempted communist takeover in the first place.
The salient fact about the 2nd half of the 20th century, that is routinely ignored by Lemmy’s tankies, is that the men guiding US foreign policy had survived the largest war in human history and were absolutely and legitimately terrified that there would be another even worse war in the very near future if they didn’t do everything they could to prevent the kind of runaway imperialism seen in Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
Furthermore, these men knew for a fact --as even Lemmy’s tankies will admit-- that communism by design and by doctrine can only come to its final stage in a globally hegemonic system. If you honestly believed, as they clearly did, that fighting a war in Korea --which after all had been liberated from Imperial Japan by the US-- was part of a much larger strategy to contain communism and thereby prevent a 3rd world war, you would feel yourself morally obliged to do it.
We can argue about whether or not they were correct in their beliefs, but we can’t simply condemn them as evil imperialists. That’s just stupid reductionist bullshit. Reality is always much more complicated than simple black and white “my team good, your team bad.”
Nice post was able to find many pro genocide and colonization users here to be labeled as “idf” or “Zainoist”
People’s views on NK and how it got there are a surprisingly good indicator of their views on Palestine.
NK shouldn’t be here
The number of tankies in this thread is just epic
The amount of zionists in this thread is staggering. Apparently fighting back against oppressors is a bad thing.
The number of people who don’t think Israel should exist always amazes me.
It shouldn’t if you know Israel’s history.
So, pointing out that the US carpet bombed North Korea with 635,000 tons of bombs, killed 20% of their population and turned all remaining infrastructure to rubble is “tankie” now?
You guys just can’t see non-westerners as human.
Two wrongs don’t make a right, you cow.
Parroting zionist talking points really well there bud. The fuck do you mean ‘wrong’?
The Viet Cong didn’t liberate their country from the US by being nice, and Palestinians won’t liberate theirs from US-backed Israel by being nice either. The difference here is the even more extreme brutality of the US that made NK the way it is today.
Well, that and the fact that the DPRK is being held hostage by one of the world’s most successful organized crime families. Had North Korea won, the only difference would be that the Kim family would control all of Korea. I don’t think it’s accurate to say that the US made the Kims what they are.
One thing that I think is not widely appreciated enough, especially by younger people, is how much the fear of a third world war dominated the 2nd half of the 20th century. I don’t point this out as any kind of moral justification on anyone’s part, but rather as an explanation that is far more convincing than the simple US bad, communism good and vice versa that is so common on social media.
We have to remember that the men behind all of these events had survived the largest war in human history and absolutely believed in the possibility of even worse to come. It informed everything about how they thought about the world. How could it not? The things they had seen and experienced first hand were, as they say, the stuff of nightmares.
How else does the word “wrong” mean. You braindead jackass.
I think the statistics show it all in the Korean case. May be lot of tankies here, but they’r bringing factual data.
You guys I bit off more than I can chew
Great shitpost 👍
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Ehhh the Korean war is complicated. It started with Japan invading Korea and attempting to erase their history and culture. (Worth noting that America gave them the green light on this). After WW2, Korea was divided and backed by US/USSR interests on either side. It was a shitshow with everyone disagreeing how things should be run. Eventually North Korea did invade the South, though, so I guess this meme still applies. But even that fact is unclear - they claim it was retaliatory. Who knows.
It would have been so much easier if instead of splitting Vietnam and Korea, they kept one for each empire to take care of
Ehhh the Korean war is complicated
North Korea did invade the South
Doesn’t seem very complicated to me
oh well if you think it’s simple then please write the historians who cant make sense of it, we don’t know who attacked first
The Korean War was fought between North Korea and South Korea from 1950 to 1953. The war began on 25 June 1950 when North Korea invaded South Korea following years of internal instability and hostilities between the two states.
Yeah it’s a real conundrum, that one
scroll down on the Wikipedia page you copied that from. it describes exactly what I’m talking about. I’m not some Hexbear shill here, the Korean war is a legit fucked up and complicated situation
Honestly why are you so adamant that international conflict must be simple? are you that naive, or are you playing with me, or what?
Who started it is very simple. North Korea started it by invading the South. I’m sorry if that annoys you but it’s not a very controversial thing to say at all or something that’s highly debated by historians or anything.
sigh you’re really not gonna go back and read it, are you?
Operation Pokpung
Main article: Operation PokpungAt dawn on 25 June 1950, the KPA crossed the 38th parallel behind artillery fire.[128] The KPA justified its assault with the claim that ROK troops attacked first and that the KPA were aiming to arrest and execute the “bandit traitor Syngman Rhee”.[129] Fighting began on the strategic Ongjin Peninsula in the west.[130][131] There were initial South Korean claims that the 17th Regiment had counterattacked at Haeju; some scholars argue the claimed counterattack was instead the instigating attack, and therefore that the South Koreans may have fired first.[130][132] However, the report that contained the Haeju claim also contained numerous other errors and outright falsehoods.[133]
This isn’t some galaxy brain conspiracy take, I’m literally just talking about this ambiguity. And I really don’t feel very strongly about this issue - I’m more perturbed that you’re be so obstinate about it.
However, the report that contained the Haeju claim also contained numerous other errors and outright falsehoods.
Yes, that claim. It’s not highly debated or anything. Like the article says
The years prior to North Korea’s invasion of South Korea were marked by border clashes between the two countries and an insurgency in the South that was backed by the North.[36][37][38] After failed attempts to stop the fighting and unify the Koreas, North Korean forces (Korean People’s Army or KPA) crossed the 38th parallel on 25 June 1950, formally starting the war.
There’s some dubious claims, but almost everyone agrees that North Korea started the war. This is like arguing that there’s ambiguity about climate change since there’s some scientists who don’t believe in it. Meanwhile, the vast vast majority agrees that it’s a thing.
It’s all well and good to think “there’s two sides to this” and whatever, you want to be fair and whatnot, but it’s really unwarranted here. You’re just unwittingly giving more credence to dubious claims.
I guess Israel were too busy genociding Palestinians to make it to the meeting.
Maybe Hamas shouldn’t start shit.
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
That’s funny that you think you’re on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.
I think I know where I’ll put my money.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn’t mean it’s morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
What’s the ethnic makeup of Israel? What’s the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You’re granted citizenship automatically if you’re Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it’s not technically considered an ethnostate, it’s about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
By your logic, the Innocents killed on 9/11 brought it on themselves.
selfawarewolf?
american war on taliban was the well accepted result. israels war on gazians… same.
Wow that is some amazing mental gymnastics there. I sure do hope you don’t strain yourself with all those logical fallacies you are jumping through.
The United States created the conditions for the blowback that resulted in the 9/11 attacks
Missing the Palestinian flag there Buddy.
*Israeli
Another dope who’s swallowed Iran’s Propaganda. Good job. Israel didn’t start it in October, or in '48 or any of the wars in between.
Either way, it doesn’t make Israel’s actions right.
No but it makes them justified. When faced with an existential threat, there is no choice but to eliminate it.
This all ends when Hamas gives up their terroristic control. Even the Arabs understand that and are including it in their peace deal negotiations.
You didn’t read the article. Your statements make no sense.
It’s a picture not an article…and you still struggled to read it. LoL.
You don’t read pictures. You look at them. This is a meme. As you were.
add hamas to this picture
Yes, history started 7th October. Very smart
Ah yes, the good ol “they deserved it”
One of the key differences between Chat GPT and humans is that humans can remember more than 32k tokens in a conversation at a time.
Given that you already forgot what OP wrote by the time you replied to a top level comment, you’ve performed significantly worse than a bot. Congratulations.
Sorry, I am unable to fulfill your request. Could you reformulate?
No, it started in 1948. And it was started by several Arab nations, who invaded immediately after Britain released their mandate in the region protecting Israelis.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab–Israeli_War
Heard of the six day war? How about the Yom kipour war? Who started any of them?
1948 is the year Israel began their genocide by killing or displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian people, after which several neighbouring nations staged a joint military intervention.
Imagine claiming history has spanned a total of 75 years and that an attempted invasion at the beginning of time justifies a genocide in progress today.
Lemme ask you a question: how did Jerusalem get its name, and who lived there and named it thousands of years ago?
Maybe learn something before you advocate for the extermination of an entire people. Jerusalem was named after the pre jewish pagan Canaanite god Shalem. Those ancient Canaanites were there before the Jews and the modern Palestinians are the descendants of those ancient Canaanites.
Romans.
Jokes aside, the Bible states that Jews conquered the city from Jebusites. There’s no scientific consensus on who Jebusites actually were. But they were not Israelites, that’s for sure.
Will the answer justify the genocide?
No.
Why should anyone care, and why do you deflect to this with less integrity than literal Nazis, who use the sense blood and soil arguments you do, but at least tend to own their genocidal positions?
By your logic, who named Los Angeles, Nevada, Texas, Florida, …? Are you saying the US has to give back more than half of the territory to Spain?
They also tried to straight up genocide Israel two more times afterwards too.
You mean Israel.
