What is your general attitude towards those who believe in religion whether they are jewish, Muslim, Christian etc etc.
Do you get on well with any religious friends and neighbours?
Have you ever thought of believing in a religion at some point?
If you do not like the faiths, why?
If you DO, also why? Does this come from your family? Maybe something went bad during your life?
I get that Lemmy might have the same stereotype in Reddit that there are loads of atheists, but there’s a good reason why despite criticism of religion, it is still here.
P.S. I am not religious or anti religious in any fashion, I am agnostic.
Imagine if that person did all the same things they do, but without the label of “religion” being attached.
Charity? Awesome! Habitat for Humanity is an explicitly Christian organization and does great work. In my neighborhood, the local Lutheran and Quaker churches give out free food to the poor, and they don’t sneak any Lutheran or Quaker cooties into it. If you’re good to others because you think God wants you to be good to others, that still really does count as being good to others.
Prayer? Okay, take “religion” off of it and they’re meditating, thinking, or talking to themselves. That’s good. Unless they’re thinking and talking about torturing their neighbors eternally, or something creepy like that. (But even then, better to keep those fantasies to yourself than to act them out in public.) Die Gedanken sind frei — thoughts are free.
Going to worship services? Okay, they’ve got a weekly social event where they sing songs and listen to speeches. Sounds great, unless the songs are about “everyone outside this room is a terrible person and deserves to suffer forever” and the speeches are about hate politics. If they’re about how wonderful it is to be nice to each other, or being brave and standing up against oppression, or something else that would be positive even without the label of “religion” on it, great!
Dietary rules? It’s okay to have preferences, distinct cultures, cuisines, and so forth. For that matter: my family isn’t Jewish, but when I was little, we ate kosher beef hot dogs, because my mom expected the rabbis would care about the meat being sanitary. (Unfortunately in retrospect, kosher slaughter is, shall we say, not clearly better than secular slaughter.)
What you said is all true, but you are ignoring the negative aspects of religion.
Religious influence, both on their followers and on government, is anti-science, misogynistic, and anti-LGBT.
Religions are funded like pyramid schemes, with the most desperate and vulnerable as their victims.
Religious indoctrination is child abuse.
Anti-science, misogyny, etc. are bad independently of whether they are done in the name of religion, or pseudoscience, or political ideology. Doing bad things in the name of religion is exactly as bad as doing them in the name of communism, or capitalism, or racial ideology, etc.
Anti-science, misogyny, etc may be bad independently of religion, but they aren’t independent of religion. Religion is a source of these problems.
You can imagine a hypothetical religion that is simply a “social club” or whatever, but here in the real world religion comes with baggage.
Religion is why my cousin’s children have never seen a doctor in their life. Religion is why my gay friend in high school tried to kill himself. Religious indoctrination has led to lifelong shame and trauma in many of my friends.
And this was just from a “moderate” sect of Christianity- the millions living under fundamentalist religion have it even worse.
I like this. You’re good people.
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I like this interpretation but last I checked the vegans aren’t going to vote for a despot who will kill all non-vegans, and that they don’t view the death of all non-vegans as a positive thing. (Most vegans I know are keenly aware they can only participate in veganism because of modern agricultural, distribution, and economic systems. They know veganism is an elitist choice that a lot of the world cannot make.)
I think that’s the major difference here.
Sure. Voting for religious genocide is just as bad as voting for non-religious genocide: e.g. on the basis of nationalism, pseudoscience, or the like.
Agreed.
Raised Catholic, and I definitely see organized religion through that lens. I see charismatic leaders manipulating followers. I see systems to keep people, especially women and children, subservient. I see followers giving up responsibility for their own actions and beliefs. Even if a religion doesn’t start out that way, the way they organize makes them susceptible to the power-hungry who will corrupt it.
Am I extremely sceptical of organized religion? Yes, doubly so of people who seek positions of authority within organized religion.
Do I recognize some people who follow an organized religion are good and well-intentioned? Yes.
Do I call bullshit on the people who think the only way to be a good person is by following an organized religion? Heck, yes.
I don’t care unless they force me to believe the way they do.
What would you say to a person that wont use preferred pronouns of a trans person?
If you’re trying to make an analogy here, that’s incredibly short sighted.
Forcing religious values down other ppls throats is trying to dictate their life.
“forcing” aka asking to be referred to with certain pronouns is asking to have your own life respected.
One is about having your beliefs respected, the other is demanding others to act as if they were part of your faith no matter if they believe or care.
So then what would you say to a person that wont use preferred pronouns of a trans person?
Some religions believe that they should proselytize as many people as possible, so really not letting them convert you is disrespectful to their beliefs.
I agree that there’s a difference, but I’m not sure a simple argument like this really works since it is difficult to say one belief is ‘better.’
Proselytizing: You can say no without repercussions.
“Forcing Their Beliefs:” You have to follow the religion or you will face legal/societal consequences.
It’s not analogous nor related to the topic, but since you asked, this scenario requires a lot of assumptions.
Is said person intentionally misgendering? I’ll make it quick. “Please respect [trans person]'s preferences.” It’s not my business to force them to comply or not.
Taking a WAG at the number, I would say that 90% of people in your belief group would use soft power against someone that wouldnt go along with using their new pronouns. This includes things like banning them from social media, kicking them off youtube, debanking them, ect. Do you think that using influence like this is approapraite to get people to not offend the trans people?
Those who believe in an invisible sky wizard (or any other delusion) belong in psychotherapy.
As someone who is mostly agnostic, those who belive that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence belong in psychotherapy.
There is zero evidence either way, the best we can say is that we don’t know.
Literally anything that anyone can ever imagine, is not all equally probable.
Yeah man something about Russell’s tea pot
We have no evidence for gods, that’s it. There’s no need to provide evidence for absence of god, the burden of proof belongs to the person who makes the claim (that there’s a god/gods).
The problem with this theory is that we dont have a complete explanation for existence without the existence of a higher power.
Yep, but we have tool for trying to understand it. It’s called scientific method, and it has so far been able to help us understand the mechanics of the universe without resorting to crazy claims such as “yeah must have been super powered aliens”, which is the only offer from religion.
I do get that there’s a chance that it’s all bogus, and that there really is or was a god that created everything in a way we have been able to measure it, but why exactly should I believe it? Which story should I believe? ‘In this world of a million religions everyone prays the same way’, the same human made stories written over centuries trying to explain the world around us. In this context religion seems nothing more than a predecessor to scientific method turned into crowd control tool.
My main point is any philosophy about where humans came from is a matter of faith. I was just pointing out the issue where evolution doesnt sufficiently explain things, but most atheists are aware of this or just handwave away the problem.
I suppose on picking a religion you would need to look at what makes the most logical sense, and is most consistent. Also I would look at what has the best track record with the best outcome.
Why is that a problem?
Isn’t it a much bigger problem to invent an explanation and insist it’s correct, rather than just admitting we don’t know?
The problem is that DNA and associated parts are too complex to evolve, so there is no explaination how it would have gotten to that point. You can say that religion doesnt do a good job explaining, but the various religions have one even though its kind of cheating. Evolution seems impossible without another unknown factor which makes it another faith based system.
isn’t a ‘higher power’ just kicking the can down the road?
It could be, I guess it would all depend on the theory of what a higher power is. If its God, then thats the endpoint, if its aliens or simulation theory, then it definitely is a kick.
As someone who is mostly agnostic, those who belive that absence of evidence equals evidence of absence belong in psychotherapy.
This position is a straw man. Atheists generally do not argue that God categorically does not exist. Instead, we usually say that we don’t believe in God because there is insufficient evidence. Much like the proverbial invisible unicorn in your backyard - since there is no evidence that it exists, there is no reason for it to affect how we go about our daily lives.
When it comes to whether you’re agnostic or atheist, I think it helps to answer the following question on a scale of 0 - 10: How confident are you that God exists? If you say around 5, then you’re agnostic. If you say around 1 or 2, then you’re an atheist.
I believe in that which we can prove, because we have evidence of those things.
Not invisible sky wizards. Lol
I’m an ex-Christian, the more I read the Bible, the more it doesn’t make sense. But I respect others choices to believe in their higher power, whatever that may be that makes their life work. Double points if they respect back. They all can’t be right.
I don’t mind them doing their thing at home, but I could do without them shoving their lifestyle in everybody’s face in public.
Growing up in religious circles I kinda learned that there’s no good in religion. Surely there’s good religious people, but they spread the evil word the same as those who want to bring the oppressive shit onto others.
Religion has never been good for anything but for controlling masses
As a pwd and a 4th generation Aussie i won’t employ any religious types and or conservative types
All religions are made up. No one has ever proven that a “god” or supernatural entity exists, no one, ever. It’s all mythology, fiction and “supernatural” nonsense. Ghosts, angels, demons, gods, spirits, pick a name, pick a flavor, none of it is real. It’s like insisting that Harry Potter, James Bond, Tinkerbell, Captain Kirk or Superman are actually real living people / spirits / entities, and they have the ability to control you now and after you die. Just because you, or someone claims it’s real does not make it factual. You are allowed to believe in whatever you want to, but you are NOT allowed to force others to believe that same thing. If you truly believe in your “religion”, you would research it in every way possible, reading pro and con information to get a balanced understanding of what you decided to believe in. You will learn where all the stories of your religion originate from, and that will actually decide what you choose to believe in. Religion is a lifestyle choice.
I’m atheist. My mom is a devout catholic (and raised me that way) and my dad is an atheist Jew. I never truly believed and mostly think religion is dumb, but I’m fine with everyone believing or not as they see fit. I’m not fine when others’ religion is forced on anyone else - e.g., abortion restrictions, the 10 commandments being displayed in Louisiana classrooms.
I myself am Christian and have never had trouble getting along with others no matter their religious beliefs. The only conflict is when someone thinks their religion or religious precepts should be made law; I have no tolerance for that.
For the don’t-anger-the-sky-daddy religions, roughly the same as having a crazy aunt who gives 10% of her shit to a psychic or Trump. I haven’t experienced the be-one-with-the-universe religions being as exploitative, but I guess those wack Theravadan Wats don’t pay for themselves.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/10/india/dalai-lama-apology-kissing-boy-video-intl-hnk/index.html
Buddhism has its own set of worthless freaks, you know.
Despite the claimed ostensible “good” Religion can supposedly bring…
We’re literally in the middle of a mass extinction event and facing our own extinction and belief in this religious horseshit precludes people from caring or believing in man-made disaster.
We’re literally facing our own extinction because these people can’t be fucked to face up to reality instead of playing cult games of “but I’ll have everlasting life after death so who cares what happens to the planet!”
I don’t give one flying fuck what “good” it can do for an individual, it’s going to be the downfall of human fucking civilization.
Whatever “good” it brings is destroyed and overshadowed by the cult like behavior that would worship corrupt figures like Donald Trump and who choose to live in a false reality simply because it is more comforting.
I used to be fence sitter agnostic but Qanon has made me deep on the athiest side. I don’t care what ones religion is but I don’t want to hear about it. Its fine to mention it but if someone is always talking about it then I will avoid them.
Religious or not, I don’t care. What matters is their personality. (except for jehova’s witnesses, every time I’ve interacted with them it made me think they’re some sort of cult rather than a religion, so not sure if this counts.)
I do have religious friends that I get well with.
In New Zealand we’re currently waiting on the release of a report from a parliamentary commission on the state of the Jehovah’s Witnesses following decades of abuse claims. We don’t expect it to be light reading.
As someone married to a JW and who is friends with several others, I will say this: like any group of people, they can be a mixed bag. Some are more closeted and “in the truth” whereas others are more outgoing and " worldly".
One the things that I actually admire about them (the individuals, mind you, not the Watchtower organization) is that they really seem to try and live by the teachings of the Bible and study it frequently. Much more so than, say, your average evangelical Protestant.
