In Florida I’m calling out FPL the local power company.
You would think in Florida having solar panels is a no brainer, but FPL fought it for years.
FPL successfully lobbied to have insurance companies deny coverage if panels are installed on a roof. You can’t get windstorm insurance with panels unless you paythrought the nose.
FPL successfully lobbied to force homeowners with powerwalls and panels to take out a 1 million dollar insurance policy payable to FPL in case there’s an accident that damages the grid…an accident that has never happened, ever.
FPL then has the gall to advertise solar energy and all the benefits, you can sign up for solar power provided by FPL for a slight increase in your bill to help the environment.
Mother fucking FPL
Wait, solar panels are hard to use? When did they fuck that up?
Capitalism. Anyone who tries not to buy my shit is my enemy.
plug a solar panel into a large battery backup, plug the major appliances into that.
Utility companies don’t need to know shit.
That’s what I have. Basically a small-ish parallel electrical system that runs critical loads like a mini split, refrigerator, water heater, etc. And a small UPS for modem/server.
These can output 1800W, 1100Wh, Starts at CAD$700 then you just pay more for more storage for bigger systems.
Those are neat for camping or if the power goes out for the afternoon. I use mine mostly for my telescope.
That’s a very small system that won’t power much at all. Additionally I don’t recommend these “all in one” systems, as they’re typically more expensive, not as good, nor are they modular or repairable. Those are really if you need a “mobile” system.
Out of curiosity, how do you have that setup (at a high level)?
I’ve got a bluetti system for emergency power (12kWh, 6kW AC output) but I need to plug things directly into it. It’d be nice to feed it directly to my house wiring but … selectively. That is, I wouldn’t want to power the HVAC but it would be nice to not have to shuffle the fridge/freezer plugs from the wall to the inverter.
Dedicated circuit(s) with a manual switch from mains to inverter, I’m guessing? But then we get into all the extras required to do that safely and avoid back feeding the grid.
Granted, they have systems/setups specifically for whole house power but I don’t want to feed the whole house, just the important circuits/appliances.
Dedicated circuit(s) with a manual switch from mains to inverter, I’m guessing?
That’s how one of the hospitals I worked at did it. Probably wasn’t a manual switch though.
Basically made a really sturdy pergola and then mounted solar panels to it. Ran that wiring to the MPPT, batteries and inverter in the garage. Put in a new small breaker box right next to the existing one, which made it real easy to just grab the wires for the critical loads and run them over to the new panel.
No need to worry about backfeeding, as I said they’re parallel electrical systems, so it’s not possible.
Aha, the separate breaker box is the part I wasn’t thinking about. I’ll need to do some thinking on how I could make that work for me. Thank you for the info.
Kent?
No but he sounds like a cool guy
He is, colleague of mine has a very similar setup lol
Lots of people do :)
I don’t understand the parallel part. Do you mean independent, so the critical stuff can only get power from the solar circuit? Since it’s critical stuff, do you have a fallback if solar production is low? Is your battery 24 or 48v?
You could plug the bluetti into wall power and while there is wall power it runs off that like a UPS.
That setup I believe would also use solar while it was producing, but the moment solar was gone it’d switch to the house power.
If the overall load is more than house power can give via an outlet (you could add a beefier outlet if the bluetti supports higher inputs) it’d start draining the battery.
I dont know if bluettis software says use solar / battery only until battery is 10% kinda thing so this might not be optimized to use solar properly.
Edit: just realized someone else was the one who mentioned bluetti, and not OP, but this is doable with other systems too.
I mean the 2 systems are not connected in any way. They’re completely independent.
If it stays cloudy for a few days, or I am anticipating a potential outage, I can plug in a battery charger to the grid.
My batts are 48V EG4 units. But I would go the “DIY” route if I were to do it again, they are considerably less expensive.
My thoughts exactly. Also I wouldn’t really like to risk my stuff by connecting to their infrastructure anyway. At least over here, I saw how incompetent they are.
over here
Texas? 😂
I was going to say California. We have constant outages here — having grown up in blizzards and tornados I never imagined they wouldn’t be able to keep power on here. It’s bad, like I mean when there’s a little wind it’s probably not staying on.
Serbia / Hungary.
I mean, it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off, but I’m not a lineman or some sort of civil engineer or whatever.
But if I were a lawmaker, I’d be on the phone with the Germans, who have 1.2M of these connected, and figuring out if and how they’re doing it safely. But lawmakers seem to be somehow incapable of reaching out to people who know fuck all about anything.
The microinverters stop feeding in if grid goes down. So it’s safe.
Assuming its not cheap piece of crap that isn’t UL listed and that’s where the problem is.
Hmmm, I wonder how this would affect things in the future where this is widely used.
I.E. if you had both widespread solar usage and some kind of large blackout, would it be hard to get all your solar back online because it’s all in the “waiting for the grid” state? And the grid can’t come back at capacity because all the solar it’s expecting is out?
I assume people smarter than me have this figured out, but just a random thought if anyone knows more.
Not just solar - most grid-scale generators have this problem. “Black start” is the search term you want to look for, and Practical Engineering has a good video on the subject.
Basically, only a relative few grid generators are actually capable of black starts. The rest need the grid to be already functioning before they can tie in and start producing.
Yes, starting up a downed grid is a difficult problem. Recovering from a large scale failure could take weeks. Longer, with blown transformers.
You turn on parts of the grid at a time.
Or if the voltage is too high. Or at least they should be
Too high, too low, or out of frequency range.
Yeah, I’m practice I’ve only had the first one happen to me
What happens when someone makes an unsafe backfeed into a downed grid and then other nearby inverters detect the current and bring themselves back online? Is there a way to detect if the load is being delivered from the utility vs from incorrectly configured solar or generator installations?
Some others are arguing back and forth about this elsewhere in the thread and I see the reasoning: unpermitted systems could accidentally energize isolated portions of the grid during downtime, which might trick properly installed systems to also come back online, and you have a runaway effect where there is enough current present to allow addition safety systems to be fooled.
There isn’t any data transmission over the wires; there either is current, or there isn’t. Arguing over permitting is moot - either safety systems can handle this scenario already, or they can’t.
All paperwork does is slow the relief of dependence on the utility, which hurts their profits.
The same thing that currently happens when somebody does that with a gas generator? Linepersons get zapped… people get sued… etc…
There isn’t any data transmission over the wires…
That’s very wrong. Not only can you extend Ethernet in your own home using your power outlets, the power companies have been reading meters this way for decades.
Linepersons get zapped… people get sued… etc…
Kinda seems like something you might want to avoid…
Obviously. I was just pointing out that it isn’t an issue unique to solar.
It is unique to “balcony solar”. Typical solar systems require permits and inspections before connecting.
No it isn’t. The same thing happens with the kind of gas generators you can get from your local hardware store all the time.
How do you know? In a typical solar system, you have to have a permit, which requires an inspector to come out and ensure everything is configured correctly and safely. These don’t require any permits, which is great for making them more affordable and accessible, but there’s also no one coming around to make sure that anyone is doing it safely.
Inverters in the US are all listed to UL1741-SB which dictates that they shall cease to energize their AC outputs if they sense an absence of grid voltage.
Now, one thing people are ignoring is that UL1741-SB allows for islanding protection, and the disablement of it. If an inverter has its settings changed such that islanding protection is OFF, then the inverter will keep sending power to the “grid” because it thinks it’s operating on a microgrid that was previously disconnected from the larger grid via a Microgrid Interconnection Device (MID).
The settings these inverters have are user-settable, which means they need to be checked by a qualified person, either a contractor, engineer, or inspector. These settings must also often be checked by the utility you’re interconnecting to before they allow you to energize, so usually all of these parties have eyes on the inverters’ settings and can stop work before energization until things are corrected.
Ultimately I agree with you. If we don’t want to have to need inspections for every solar installation, especially residential ones and especially where plug-and-play solar modules are used, then inverters need to have their settings pre-configured for the grid code in the factory that then cannot be changed by the user or operator in the field. That would be a way to shoe-in this kind of installation.
Hard setting grid codes into inverters prior to shipping to site might be overly conservative though, especially as utilities change their grid codes over time. You need to have a way to update those settings, which could be using a wireless portal hosted by the inverter OEM with credentials made only available to the OEM. Problem with this is that then you shift the burden of configuration to the manufacturer which already has a ton of other UL standards as well as rules and regulations to follow.
What do y’all think?
I agree with everything you said except shoe-in, because it’s shoo-in.
But you articulated (better than I was going to) the number one issue. Power companies need insurance and their insurance will be affected if ordinance permits basically unchecked generators being plugged into the grid. And before anyone says it, you are not allowed to just plug your generator into your house. Does it happen? Yeah, people have been dumb since day one.
But there are transfer switches that allow for this operation in a safe manner, and the easiest way to deal with this is to have them installed by default in new construction, and to provide incentive for upgrading your panel to include one.
Inverters in the US are all listed to UL1741-SB which dictates that they shall cease to energize their AC outputs if they sense an absence of grid voltage.
No, they are absolutely not. I don’t know where people are getting this idea. Many inverters aren’t even UL listed. There is absolutely no requirement for them to be. If that were the case, off-grid inverters wouldn’t even be allowed to exist. I own several that do not have this capability and are not UL listed.
they need to be checked by a qualified person
Not in the case of Utah’s new “balcony solar” laws. That’s the problem.
which could be using a wireless portal hosted by the inverter OEM with credentials made only available to the OEM
Oh goodie, I’ve always wanted DRM for my inverter.
What do y’all think?
I think it should just require a permit, like every other solar installation. Unless we can provide data to show that it’s not a problem in existing areas where this is common, and we research and follow their regulations.
Many inverters aren’t even UL listed.
Yes but many inspectors and insurance companies won’t want you to install electrical equipment on “real property” or buildings if it isn’t UL as that falls into the scope of AHJs and insurance providers. If there’s something that has the potential to start a fire, you need to have safety certifications so operating the system not only reduces the risk of fire, but also selling the house in the future to a new owner doesn’t come with excess burden on behalf of the next insurer.
If your solar system is off-grid AND off-building, I see no reason that you need to have a UL listed system.
This is of course dependent on local AHJs and utilities, but UL 1741 covers both standalone (off-grid) and grid-interactive (on-grid) inverters. If you’re choosing an inverter manufacturer that makes non-UL listed off-grid inverters, I would probably be suspect of their products’ quality as it’s easier to gain UL listing regardless of how the inverter is used: off-grid or grid-interactive.
That’s the problem.
That is a problem. Off-grid inverters that aren’t certified to UL 1741-SB aren’t required to have anti-islanding protection that cuts the inverters off if there’s an absence of grid voltage. If a “balcony solar” inverter were to NOT cease to energize upon loss of grid and stay islanded, then voltage is introduced to the building’s/community’s shared local distribution system. If work were to be done on that portion of the distribution system or grid where lineman and wireman expect conductors to be de-energized, then you might have injuries as a result. Now, you may be able to say that lineman and wireman should always test for presence of voltage prior to doing work, and as a solar engineer I would absolutely expect folks to do this, but that’s not always the case. People cut corners. And in the event that certain crews cut corners, don’t check for voltage and investigate where the voltage source is, and start touching wires and introducing paths to ground, people can get seriously injured or die.
You may think that because solar panels are current-limited that this fact protects workers in the event of becoming exposed to live voltage, but any combination of voltage and current can kill.
I’ve always wanted DRM for my inverter.
In the context of safety, this is a good thing. Skirting DRM on movies or TVs won’t mean you injure yourself or others or worse. Skirting inverter settings can cause inverters to operate in ways that are unintended, and could hurt people. These things are not the same, and it’s concerning that you can’t see the difference.
Also, having locks on settings means that other bad actors are deterred from changing those settings maliciously, whether intentional or not.
There is not substitute for a qualified person operating and maintaining an electrical system, regardless of voltage.
I think it should just require a permit
Agreed
Yes but many inspectors and insurance companies won’t want you
…why would anyone care what those people want?
if there’s something that has the potential to start a fire, you need to have safety certifications
No you don’t.
If your solar system is off-grid AND off-building, I see no reason that you need to have a UL listed system.
You’re missing the point. Nothing is stopping anyone from installing off-grid inverters (or any inverter at all) in an on-grid system.
I would probably be suspect of their products’ quality
Have you ever looked at “top sellers” on Amazon? Most people do not care about quality, they just buy the cheapest shit possible.
These things are not the same, and it’s concerning that you can’t see the difference.
I see the difference, I just don’t care. It’s concerning that you can’t see the potential for exploitation, both from corporations and governments.
I know it because it’s in the spec necessary for licensing. It shuts off in under 20 ms so you can’t even get shocked by the prongs of the plug if pulled out.
What license? Who is coming to verify your license?
It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany. It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
It all shouldn’t be so difficult to understand.
It is a commercial product, connected to the grid via a standard schuko plug, sold in Germany.
Or you buy it in Aliexpress/Temu and it will have whatever it will have, no policeman is going to come check if the panel they see from the street has a stamp or not.
But if your house burns down because of your unlicensed configuration, the insurance won’t pay, and if people got hurt there will be a criminal investigation.
It has to be compliant with the local law to be sold legally.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
It all shouldn’t be so difficult to understand.
It’s not, which is why I’m not sure why you’re struggling.
So you can’t buy raw solar panels or inverters in Germany?
Sure you can. Solar panels will be fried by grid voltage more or less immediately if you connect them directly to a wall socket and become useless.
You cannot buy a PV inverter in Germany (entire EU really) that doesn’t automatically shut off if it doesn’t detect a frequency to sync against from it’s AC side, unless it can run off-grid in which case it has to disble the grid connection within the same 20ms.
Of course you can buy whatever you like, and whatever is being sold has to be compliant with local legal requirements.
If you buy illegal stuff and cause problems, you will have problems with your insurance and potentially, legal ones.
And that’s all I’m going to say on the matter. HAND.
You are only allowed to sell inverters approved by VDE
Again I ask, if there is no permit, how will the utilities know you are in compliance with this law?
You are required to notify your utilities that you’ll be operating a direct plugged small solar PV installation, that’s it. They can’t forbid you from doing this.
The utilities don’t monitor compliance, the manufacturer is.
In the United States that would be UL Certification.
UL is not a license. It’s a certification. And you forgot the second question.
UL certification is a requirement for an electric or electronic product to be licensed for sale to consumers in the US. This is enforced on US manufacturers of a product and on importers.
Whilst people buying something from AliExpress for personal use and importing it themselves don’t have to obbey such requirements, those importing them or making them for sale in the US do.
The CE mark does the same thing in the EU.
No idea if in the US there are further licensing requirements for things to be connected to the grid that would close the importing for personal use loophole.
Utilities must approve power export to the grid, even if you do the physical installation 100% off the books. It’s called “Permission to Operate”, which requires permits and passed inspections. You can’t just unilaterally add shit to the power grid.
https://www.energysage.com/solar/solar-interconnection-what-you-need-to-know/
According to my research, there is no such permit required in Utah. And presumably new legislation is looking to have this exception as well.
not true, you still need to apply to the utility to export to the grid.
https://www.rockymountainpower.net/savings-energy-choices/customer-generation.html
And presumably new legislation is looking to have this exception as well.
why “presumably”?
Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”. And these systems are not supposed to export to the grid anyway.
why “presumably”?
Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?
Your link doesn’t mention anything about “balcony solar”.
“Application process for rooftop solar and other smaller systems”. If you want to export power to the grid from anything at all, you must go through this process. If you wanted to export power from a hamster on a wheel you must apply for PTO.
Because the whole point is to make solar easier and more affordable?
of course, but not at the cost of safety and grid reliability.
Easy check, grab a voltmeter and do it yourself.
Pull the plug, set voltmeter to AC, and read the voltage across the prongs. If you get anything over the usual float voltage you get from just holding the probes ungrounded, then you have a problem.By “you” I did not mean your personal solar system. I mean how does the utility know that other users that have systems connected are doing so safely?
The PRODUCT is designed to stop feeding OUT the plug if it doesn’t detect CURRENT from the socket. AC is alternating current so it pulses on and off so the solar system is doing the same. It’s turning on and off quickly and seeing if it gets power back and if it detects no power incoming it shuts off the power from the solar. It’s quite simple and ingenious.
ok I have to believe the guy replying is a shil at this point. Use of approved products is as old as the electric stystem. Its why the electric company does not have to come and inspect everything you have plugged into the grid and does not come out every time you get a new appliance. The standards are with the product as you correctly point out and the state does not allow on compliant products to be sold just like with refrigerators.
I have to believe the guy replying is a shil at this point
A shill for what, exactly? Linemen safety? The horror.
Its why the electric company…does not come out every time you get a new appliance.
That’s because your appliances aren’t backfeeding to the grid. Anything that does requires inspections and permits, to make sure they don’t kill people , or delay getting the power back on, which can kill people.
I am not asking how the technology works. I am asking how the utility verifies that people are using compliant products.
The same way they do now.
You realize generators exist right?
“The utility” has never had a way to prevent you from doing something dangerous with your wiring or with the electricity they send you. The best we’ve managed has been to encourage appliance manufacturers to design their products with safety in mind, through the UL program (which is voluntary). This is why the writer talked to the “vice president of engineering at UL Solutions.”
They are commonly used in many parts of Europe.
If you drop some Tariff percentages, we might be willing to advise.
Sure, but the article specifically mentions Germany, which leads me to believe they’re likely most abundant in that region?
Pretty sure there are tons of people who would be willing to advise on how to improve the world without discussion of tariffs that are entirely in the control of a single moron-in-chief.
Germany has a lot of plug-in solar for balconies (Balkonkraftwerke) and it’s available at very cheap prices (example here). I know it only provides up to 800W on a very sunny day but that’s still a significant amount for an apartment. And the beauty of these is that they are so plug-and-play, everything is included. You hang it, connect the cables and plug it into a socket and then you’re done.
I live in the Netherlands but I’ve been seriously considering picking up one of these if my building HoA doesn’t want to do a rooftop solar project for our building.
Yes, that was mentioned in the OP as well as the comment you replied to.
Just bought one two months ago and it’s pretty easy. Technical progress is fast and it’s cheap.
You best buy a combi: a battery including a microinverter. This allows you to feed in up to 2000W or 4 PV panels. However, here in Germany you can only feed 800W max into your house grid. All above will stored in the battery in given back slowly after sundown.
Technical setup: I have three current lines in my house (don’t know how in US it looks) and the system feeds power into just one of it - the one where the plug is plugged. I have a smart meter that tells me if this very current line has demand (oven, fridge,…) and I can open, adjust or close the power feed. This way I feed ZERO power into the grid out of my home as the system adjust the power amount to what I need in this moment.
I bought mine with 2 panels, 900W, 1,8kWh battery for 700€. Payback under 2 years.
Cool?
I love it.
In the US, reaching out to other countries for advice, even if they’re our allies, seems to be viewed as treason. At a minimum, seems like treason against “real” masculinity, on which American culture is fueled, especially now.
‘Why don’t you just stop to ask for directions?’
‘I know where I’m going!!1!1111!1!!!1!’
🙄
I had a chat about this with a friend who works for the national grid (UK).
Apparently the problem is keeping the grid balanced and stable. Basically, the grid struggles to react fast, so they plan ahead. Things like large scale solar can provide predictions on output. Home solar can’t.
When clouds pass over an area it can cause slumps and surges in the local grid. The more home solar, the worse it gets. The current grid is designed to work top down, with predictable changes in demand. It needs upgrading to deal with large scale bidirectional flows.
The plug in units are (potentially) even more ropey. If used properly, they are no worse than normal home solar. Unfortunately, being cheaper, there are worries over the microinverters not shutting down. Either due to the manufacturer cheaping out, or turning on an “off grid” mode.
There are also worries about overloading household circuits. Back feeding bypasses the household circuit breakers and RCDs. They could overload wall wiring and cause fires, or stop an RCD tripping, allowing for a person to be shocked.
I don’t know how much this would apply to the American Grid, but I would imagine it would be worse. Your grid is older and larger. You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.
You also use 120VAC which makes the current overload issue a lot worse.
Voltage inside of residences is 120v AC, but its 240v thats delivered to each house. I think a bigger difference is that in the USA that 240v AC is single phase where I believe (Germany included) many nations in the EU are 3 phase.
The USA does have 3 phase power for most commercial applications though.
It’s worth noting that this is talking about plug in solar, so would be at standard mains voltage.
1kw would be around 4A in Europe, but 8A in the USA. Also, since resistive losses scale with I^2 that’s 4x the heat dumped in the walls.
At least in the UK, they tend to run 3 phase to a road, but only a single phase goes into a given house. You need to get a special hook up to get 3 phase to a domestic premise, and they don’t like doing it.
It’s worth noting that this is talking about plug in solar, so would be at standard mains voltage.
Thats fair.
At least in the UK, they tend to run 3 phase to a road, but only a single phase goes into a given house. You need to get a special hook up to get 3 phase to a domestic premise, and they don’t like doing it.
TIL about the UK electrical system. Thanks!
I’m at the edge of my knowledge but that sounds like it matches the USA system (for the number of phases).
The UK uses single phase to the house. This is provided via one 240v hot and a neutral. Their final distribution transformer bonds one side of the output coil to ground and use it as a neutral, which makes the other side of the coil 240v relative to that ground.
The US uses split phase to the house. This is 240v provided via two opposing 120v hots and a common neutral. Their final distribution transformer is almost identical to the UK version: end to end, they have a 240v output. The difference is that instead of bonding one end of the output coil to ground and using it as a neutral for the other end, they instead bond the center of the output coil to ground and use that as a common neutral for both ends.
These systems are designed to not push power back up if the grid goes down. In most areas, the municipality won’t even allow a solar installation to be connected or even finished without it being inspected to verify you have that sort of setup.
What system?
My research shows theres no permitting required in Utah but please correct me if I’m wrong.
Did you respond to the wrong message? Nothing I said anything to do with Utah.
Did you respond to the wrong thread? Because the OP is about Utah.
The article clearly mentions California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington and Wyoming. Perhaps others that I missed as well. Your comment I replied to was not specific to a location, you said “it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off” and I was letting you know that it shouldn’t be a concern because that isn’t how solar power systems work. Do you think that Utah will work different for some reason?
The article clearly mentions California, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Washington and Wyoming.
Those are potential future locations, not current ones. Any discussion around them would be purely hypothetical. I am discussing reality.
that isn’t how solar power systems work.
Solar systems can work in any number of ways. That’s why we have regulation, to ensure they do work in specific ways. Utah currently has no such regulation. It’s “plug and play”. People literally just buy them, hang them up, and plug them in.
Ugh, not Germany. Try the Netherlands. In Germany it is a huge bureaucratic undertaking to put energy back into the grid. In the Netherlands (as far as I know) your meter just runs backwards and at the end of the year you just pay the difference or nothing if it’s lower than the year before.
In Germany your electricity provider pays you for what you put back into the grid. But not as much as pulling out is worth. That’s why almost all solar solutions in Germany are either small or need a battery because using the energy yourself is worth more than sharing it with everyone.
There are people in the Netherlands that have the system you describe. This is pretty rare though due to the massive push for new energy meters that’s been going on for the last 10 years or so. And with good reason: lots of the old meters people had were pretty unsafe and unreliable. For most people, having automatic usage reports going to both them and the electricity provider far outweighs the downsides.
Most of us are in a similar situation as Germany. We have smart meters that allow you to provide power back to the grid and this is currently very profitable. However, from 2027 onwards they are (mostly) getting rid of the profits this brings the consumer, in order to make the grid more stable and also for other, less clear (most likely energy company and government spending related) reasons.
As someone who’s worked in the grid provider field for a bit I’m not necessarily against this change; peak power surges due to lots of people selling of their excess solar power production is a huge problem that’s making the energy transition that much more difficult. Even in local grids, we’re starting to have to use massive power cables to be able to handle this. This brings with it a lot of extra costs and permit nonsense, making the life of the grid manager that much more difficult.
I wish people would take this upcoming deadline to start electrying more things in their house. But if my parents are anything to go by, all they’ll do is complain about losing their golden goose that they’ve profited from for over 10 years. They could get an electric car instead of their nonsense plug-in hybrid, they could electrify their heating needs, they could install a home battery and so much more. I know it costs money to do so but you basically run all of it for free most of the year. And besides that, with all the current global issues that are going on the reliance on fossil fuels should be phased out rapidly.
Thanks, that actually makes the German way sound more sane and more manageable.
I wasn’t aware balcony solar isn’t a thing in other countries because it’s everywhere here in Germany. So I was wondering what new thing they are talking about being even more easier.
I mean, it makes sense to me that consumers can’t be pumping energy into the grid with no way to cut it off,
I’m certain they’re designed to safely be able to do this
Almost certainly, because people use gas generators as backup in storm hit areas all the time.
What are?
The grid. Or more specifically, the SCADA computers that are constantly monitoring and controlling the entire system.
There is no safe way to service live wires.
Service? Who’s talking about servicing live wires? You do realize that these are very complex systems with tons of safeguards, right?
Service? Who’s talking about servicing live wires?
What conversation did you think we were having? Why do you think the utilities in OP are discussing “the safety of our linemen”? Why do you think backfeeding to a downed electrical grid is a problem?
You do realize that these are very complex systems with tons of safeguards, right?
You do realize that none of those safeguards protect linemen from live wires, right? That’s why we have laws and permits that regulate systems capable of backfeeding power to the grid.
They have been constantly working to reach out to the utility companies to find a way to halt this.
It is more than just the concern around back-feeding the grid. These simple balcony setups connect to your home grid via a single outlet. Most US outlets/circuits are 15 AMP or roughly 1500 watts max capacity. These single circuits can only carry that much current total at any one time so if you have it loaded up with incoming power AND use anything else on the circuit at the same time … no bueno. To make this setup work best/safely you would ideally want a dedicated circuit for it which is basically non-existent today.
The safety issues really do need to be addressed because the folks most likely to use these systems are apartment dwellers and I don’t think anyone wants to increase fire risk in these scenarios.
Most US outlets/circuits are 15 AMP or roughly 1500 watts max capacity.
That’s why they’re limited to 1200 watts.
His point was that if you’ve got 1200w incoming from the panel then you only have 300w of overhead on that circuit before the circuit breaker blows.
Sure, it’s within the limit on its own, but without a dedicated circuit for it you’ll be blowing a fuse pretty frequently when trying to use nearby plugs and lights.
As I said, that’s not how that works. You can have 10A incoming and 10A outgoing and the circuit load is still 10A.
Idk man. It’s probably over my head but I still don’t think the wires themselves could take it. In my thought process you’ve got more electricity flowing around on the circuit and even if it gets used before getting to the breaker things are going to be heating up pretty quick.
To me it sounds like trying to hook up a power plant to a data center via an indoor extension cord. It’s gonna melt.
I think the warning you might be thinking of is that a breaker can fail to pop if an inverter/generator is on the same circuit as a high wattage device. Since some energy would go directly from generation to device, the breaker will only see the “net” energy consumption. So if the generator puts out 1500W and the device decides to draw 3000W, a 15A breaker only sees 1500, and won’t trip even though the device is pulling way too much. If the breaker was sized for the wiring, then the wiring to that outlet could catch fire due to the breaker not tripping. That’s the main reason I know of why a generator or inverter should be on a dedicated circuit, to force the energy out one breaker and in another, so that the breaker can see an accurate measure of energy and trip when necessary.
I do know, man.
even if it gets used before getting to the breaker
It would be both added and consumed after the breaker. Like if you had a 10A solar system connected to a dual outlet, and a 10A space heater on the other outlet, there would only be 10A flowing through the outlet, and nowhere else in the system
Yes, I was conceding that point. I was then worried about the actual romex in the walls entirely contained after the breaker. Are you able to pump as much power as you want at 15A on a 15A rated wire? There’s got to be some limit, right?
1200 incoming + 1 hairdryer at the same time equals overloaded circuit though.
That’s now how that works. You got 1200 coming in and 1200 going out, so the solar would just power the dryer directly.
I think the risk is more that someone has a 15A-rated outlet on a 15A circuit breaker, plugs a solar panel into one socket and then a power strip with 30A of space heaters into the other socket. Breaker doesn’t trip because the main panel is only providing 15A, but the outlet lights on fire.
Not sure why that isn’t a problem in places these are more common.
Ah, that is a good point. I wonder how they’re mitigating that.
(this is the same reason that big solar systems require an oversized busbar on your main panel)
This is not it. Not only is there a microinverter and a breaker there to address that issue, but my understanding as a layman is the load in the circuit is down to how much you’re drawing (i.e. if you’re generating 1200 behind the microinverter and pulling 1500 you’re pulling 1500 through the circuit, not 2700).
The bigger fire hazard here is the battery many of these come with for storage, honestly.
That’s not to say there isn’t a bit of a risk. You need to be careful if you need to do something in the installation that you disable both the grid breaker and the microinverter. Otherwise it’s entirely possible for the grid safety to blow and the inverter to keep pumping power into your house. But as the previous poster says, there’s a reason these are legal to install in apartments all over Europe, and it’s not just European grids being set for higher amps. FWIW, most of these kits come with 800W max out. My understanding is they’re perfectly fine to use as a cost mitigation and they’ll keep your fridge going in a blackout but no, they won’t be constantly tripping your fuse.
If you use anything else on the circuit the power from the solar will just go directly into that device and bypass the wall wiring entirely.
There are a lot of circuits in the US that power multiple duplex outlets around a room. You could plug in a solar panel into one outlet and a load into another and they would be connected by a length of Romex in the walls.
Generally that’s fine and I agree, but one edge case that people overlook that I think is worth mentioning (and maybe what gp heard about and is trying to articulate) is that having an inverter or generator on the same circuit as a big energy consumer means that the breaker wouldn’t see the total energy being used by the consumer, and so it might not trip even if the consumer pulls too much wattage. That’s the main reason I know of why power sources should be on their own breaker - so it doesn’t hide power from the breaker but forces it to go out the generator circuit breaker and back in the consumer breaker so it can be protected properly.
This is why balkonkraftwerk is limited to 800 W feed-in.
Why don’t we just change the revenue model for power companies. I understand they need money to maintain the infrastructure and pay employees. If power generation becomes so cheap that it can’t sustain the company then don’t rely on that for revenue. I’d rather pay a flat rate for the infrastructure and operating costs than a fluctuating generation charge. And public utilities should not be for profit.
Ohio does something like that. We have separate contracts with a heavily regulated grid operator for distributing power, and our choice of generation companies for providing power.
The grid operator does our metering and billing, but forwards our generation charge to the provider we select.
Considering how horribly corrupt PUCO is- part of quite literally the largest modern bribery scandal (possibly the largest in the history) of the US, lets maybe not use Ohio as an example here.
For context for everyone else, this was so bad republicans literally threw a senior republican politician (sitting state representative, former speaker of the house) in jail for a 20 year sentence.
I love a story with a happy ending.
Oh no, everyone else in the republican party got off scott-free, including the current sitting governor, and the laws and funding that were bribed into existence are still around as a result, and the taxpayer money (over 1 billion of it) won’t be repaid.
I think the only exceptions to them getting off scott-free is Larry Householder, who I mentioned is in jail, and Sam Randazzo, the former PUCO chair who committed suicide. And I supposed technically the ex GOP chair Matt Borges, who was convicted, but released almost immediately.
FirstEnergy themselves are being investigated, the sitting US Senator just testified iirc last week on the matter, but the politicians that facilitated everything have otherwise not been charged with anything and there’s no intent to, and the judge seems fairly intent on ensuring no one at FirstEnergy goes to jail as well. She’s been overreaching by trying to squash any journalistic coverage of the court case, to the point of where multiple newspapers/news companies are suing her. She also just straight up dismissed money laundering charges, claiming that the prosecution hadn’t proven that the defendants knew that they payments they made were illegal… despite the prosecution providing the defendants’ own text messages celebrating it, and documents and fucking testimony from FirstEnergy’s own attorney advising them against the payment. On top of that, she dismissed the charges despite the fact that the case is still ongoing and evidence is still being entered into the record!
So yeah, it’s fucked, and it’s likely to resolve with them getting away with it. $60 million in various bribes for over $1 billion in Ohio taxpayer money, propping up power plants that don’t even serve Ohio.
Many places already do charge a “line charge” if you have solar power and use little or no utility company power. You pay for being hooked up to the grid even if you barely use it.
This is how it works in my area. I pay about $12/mo in fees, the rest is handled by solar. They don’t pay me for excess solar, instead I get credit (in kWh, not dollars, thankfully) for it and any electricity I use at night or in the winter comes from that pool. Essentially, it makes the power company a big battery for me.
This. This is the way. It solves this problem completely, but utilities somehow refuse it. It’s almost like their argument is not in good faith …
When I got solar panels on my previous home there was a $5 a month line charge. That when went up to $8 the next year, then $10, then closer to $20. The power company (Duke Energy in case anyway wants to the shitty company’s name) was determined to make it as painful as possible for people to use Solar. They were also apparently responsible for pushing to get it illegal in that area to go “off grid” and to have a cap on the amount of solar power a home could generate. At now point did these line changes stop them from raising the normal power usage rates mind you, this was just an extra “fuck you” from them.
That’s what your public service commission is for! (In most states). They come up with how the costs of the utility gets passed to consumers. I agree that making sure that infrastructure costs get passed to people who have solar panels, especially if they are relying on that infrastructure at sun-not-being-in-sky hours.
If power generation becomes so cheap that it can’t sustain the company then don’t rely on that for revenue.
I’m not aware of anywhere power generation is that cheap yet. That may be a problem for the future when commercial fusion is viable, but thats likely a lifetime away.
I’d rather pay a flat rate for the infrastructure and operating costs than a fluctuating generation charge.
I think everyone would, but the cost for generation is always fluctuating because the variation in the market for the fuels that generate electricity, supply, and demand of electricity on the market. If its a flat rate, and that rate is below the cost of generating the electricity, who pays?
If your business is critical for modern human living, it should be non-profit. It should be guided by the best management plan of the time, debated and approved by the majority of shareholders. It should open its books and stay open.
Really, it should be government.
May I introduce you to the concept of ‘natural monopoly’.
Basically most natural monopolies (power, phone lines, roads etc) in most places were historically run by governments (because it’s bloody sensible) until the neoliberal movement in the 80s privatized them because ‘private enterprise is more efficient’ (at extracting tax dollars as it turned out) and to balance a few budgets.
Should definitely be ruled a failed experiment and rolled back.
Hold on! You’re telling me every common utility is run by corpos in America? I thought it was limited to only telecom.
So you have a government organization that regulates a private company in most cases. Usually there is a layer of government in there, but profits are private.
It varies by state, but a large majority are.
The “natural monopoly” of electrical power is only on the distribution, not the generation of that power. It is reasonable for various generators to compete against each other to meet grid demand.
You should be able to push power back onto the grid. You should not be limited only to taking it off the grid. If you can put more on than you remove, you should be compensated for your generation at the market rate.
My power company is a co-op. They have long term contracts with various providers, so my power bill doesn’t fluctuate much on short term news.
At the end of every year, we get a dividend check in the mail for any excess profit.
Pretty sure all utilities should work that way.
Are you saying that electrical power should only be provided by government entities?
Should you be allowed to plug in a solar panel and provide power back to the grid?
Are you a government entity?
“Non profit” “shareholders”. Pick one.
I assume they meant stakeholders…cuz like yo, that’s us!
I just got off the phone with a solar installer and they had 2 products, one which cost nearly 60-100k to install and could be done right away because of a deal with my local gov and electric utility. Also the net metering rate and credits are getting reduced by the same utility which is actually making a return on investment harder.
OR
Another solar product costs 40k but it may take years to get approval which is not guaranteed because so far every attempt for approval from the local gov and electric utility have been in limbo or flat out denied.
🤔
that’s so blatant
In many areas, they flat out don’t allow the second one at all.
Didn’t read article, but can tell headline is BS already
Whew, his comment history.
Acronyms are beyond his reach.
We should also use public banking to allow apartment complexes where the majority want regular solar to have it installed and paid back as a cut of the solar savings.
I’m really interested in this technology. I can’t get a roof solar installation. I want a add a few panels but I don’t know where to practically start.
Thanks. I may have more questions.
The people on there are super knowledgeable. The guy who started the forum has a pretty good YouTube channel too.
Buy a corn farm and change the crop from corn to solar. Between 25% and 48% of the corn in the US is turned into ethanol for cars. You’d be doing double duty combating climate change, and living the capitalists wet dream of one time investment with constant return.
I would stop at buying a house. I worked on a farm. I now work with computers. It is on purpose.
Totally understandable why you’d change career paths from farming to computer related things, that shit is hard AF and a nightmare.
Solar farms though are way easier than other kinds of farms though, in fact I’d say it’s closer to computer work than farm work.
Basically monitor output, keep the panels clean, and keep debris to a minimum around the panels. Oh and of course repairs, but without moving parts those repairs are gonna be happening less often than other kinds of power generation.
LoL… Career path. I worked on a farm and it wasn’t mine. I’m pretty certain I can’t afford a farm.
I do appreciate your optimism and advocacy on solar farming. A house with a roof full of solar is all I really wanted. I’d like a few panels that I an plug in for my patio. The technology in the article is right up my alley.
If you can learn to write a business proposal, you don’t have to be able to afford it. A bank will practically shit themselves to give people loans that can show that an initial investment of less than $500,000 to $750,000 (for a 150 acre farm) will produce an average of $1,200,000- $1,500,000 per year every year for the next 25 years.
Edit: the previous reply in this chain wasn’t me. I appreciate their support though.
Edit 2: if you don’t know how to write a business proposal, librarians can and will help with that.
what about a solar panel that feeds into a battery? my winter bill spiked due to using a space heater, for instance. If I could have plugged into a pattery, skipued the grid, that would have been great. Is it that the cost of the battery would be too high?
How hard is it to use something you plug in and leave sitting somewhere facing the sun? 🤨
My backyard faces west and I’d happily fill half of it with plug-in panels if I could.
